The other day, Daphne McLeod forwarded me a letter a couple recently wrote to the Cardinal. I am happy to publish it here (with permission) because I believe that it reflects the concerns of many parents - especially those who have "more children than is usual in England and Wales today."
Dear Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor,
We are a Catholic married couple who feel concerned that in recent weeks the letters page of the Tablet has been running a campaign in favour of artificial contraception following a letter from Terry Prendagast of Marriage Care. Examples include:
Contraception and Marriage
Elizabeth Price (2 Dec 2006)
Laity's Instinct for Doctrinal Truth
Brendan Farrow (9 Dec 2006)
Laity's Instinct for Truth
Fr Sean Fagan (16/23 Dec 2006)
Where the Truth Leads
Shane Reese (6/1/07)
Instincts for Truth
Kevin Deane (13/1/07)
The authors are from an organisation called Catholics for a Changing Church but the titles are provided by the editor of the Tablet who is clearly suggesting that the Church is in error in its current teaching. We are greatly disappointed that not a single Bishop, priest or pastoral leader concerned with Catholic family life has replied in support of the teachings of the Church. Unless the Tablet is refusing to publish such replies.
Some of these letters have referred to the fact that many married Catholics ignore the teaching of the Church on contraception. This is only true because the teaching of the Church is rarely promoted at parish level and many Catholics believe that the use of contraception is subject to personal circumstances and therefore optional. This situation can only be rectified by strong leadership.
The belief by Catholics that use of contraception is an acceptable option has an immediate impact on Catholic couples who are following the teachings of the Church; these couples are often ridiculed by other Catholics for having more children than is usual in England and Wales today. Furthermore, since contraception is not seen to be seriously sinful, there is no urgency to provide pastoral care in the form of aid and advice on the practice of natural methods of family planning.
It may well be that the teaching is not promoted because few priests have sufficient grasp of the rich theology of Catholic marriage which justifies the teaching on contraception and clearly demonstrates its use to be seriously sinful. Furthermore, for many priests and pastoral leaders the Tablet is their main source of information. Its bias in favour of artificial contraception inclines many priests to disregard their calling to inspire married Catholics to embrace the teachings of the Church and lead holy lives.
The situation for Faithful Catholics is made worse by the fact that very few parents of children attending Catholic schools are Catholic or even Christian and they openly mock parents who unexpectedly conceive. We are currently expecting our 7th child and following the experience of carrying the 6th, less than two years ago, were filled with dread at the prospect of having to face the derision shown in our local Catholic community again.
We ask you and all Bishops and priest to voice your opposition to the views of the Tablet and withdraw it from circulation until it shows less biased reporting.
With our family prayers for your ministry,
Steve and Catriona
45 comments:
I very much sympathise with your correspondents. My experience is that if we promote natural fertility awareness many of our couples will adopt it and have their love transformed by it.
You may be interested to hear thaton 31st January Archbishop Kevin McDonald will be hosting the launch of "The Joy of God's Plan", a new DVD for teaching Natural Fertility Awareness. It is recommended for marriage preparation, RCIA and use with young people. It was created by Luton Good Counsel and is published by the CTS.
Dear Steve & Catriona,
There is some hope. In our Parish, The Oratory, the Fathers have spoken out about the use of contraception.this has supported us in our decision to have a large family. We have 10 children, the eldest is sudying to be a Pro-life doctor. I have a friend in the Parish with 14 children. 2 are married with newborns, & 2 vocations to the religious life.
Andrew, my husband & i are also assisted in our marriage by being vinculuum members of Miles Jesu, an ecclesial family of consecrated life.
At our children's Primary School, i have friends who have children by 3 fathers & others with children, & no fathers present. It is still possible to see God's grace even here & sometimes moms re-convert, usually in their 30's. so there is always hope.
Keep praying, & keep having children. pity the poor readers of The Tablet & God help Marriage Care.
God bless,
Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ
The letters are always the most dubious part of the Tablet. I happen to agree with Valle Adurni that what he calls 'The Pill' seems to be faltering in its liberalism, at least as regards the general content. The letter page reflects its residual readership, and not necessarily where the paper is going. The point is that the Tablet is very influential. It can perhaps be turned now to a good cause if enough people reply in the letters pages in a positive way instead of just bemoaning the negative. An editor cannot simply suppress letters that he or she disapproves of: he or she has to be given some other, good, letters to publish! The letter to the Cardinal should have been written to the Pill, where it might well have got an audience interested.
Look, this is a serious point. The Catholic Herald used to be the worst of the bunch (and was labelled the 'Lapsed Catholic Herald). If we turn around the Tablet, we will have performed a serious act of apostolate.
Write letters;engage in the dialogue there; we might well win the day yet.
Can we be sure that the Tablet letters page is actually biased? Surely they publish whatever letters they receive. Let's write lots of good letters to redress the balance! Then we can judge whether this is editorial policy or not.
Great blog, Fr Timothy! I'm a fan.
An excellent letter! Perhaps it should be added that for the Catholic population as a whole, divorce and separation rates are very close to national norms, but for those who practice Natural Family Planning, they are almost non-existent - a practical demonstration of the truth of the Church's teaching about what is good for marriage (and therefore society, the Church etc etc)
The story of the lady reminded mne that we now face the problems of living a religious life in a secularised nation. In the Catholic community in the past, there is no way a family with 10 kids would be ridiculed. Also, the part of the discussion regarding a greater number of religous and priestly vocations from big families struck a chord- as an only child, I have to deprive my parents of grandchildren to follow my vocation- not easy, to say the least.
What on earth was Daphne McC doing with a letter written to the cardinal in the first place?
I don't know what the current administration is like but I would not assume that they will publish anything they don't like. Under a previous editor I could name, I remember it being quite normal for my letters to be cut [in the interests of space apparently but it was very telling what they chose to cut] and for articles I wrote that did not conform to their narrow editorial line being ignored. On one occasion I received an extremely personal letter from the editor that portrayed me as either a liar or an idiot in response to an article I sent in criticising Catholic education. I have also seen a student publicly threatened with legal action by an employee of the Tablet for having the temerity to suggest that one of their journalists was not orthodox. We need also to bear in mind that a large percentage of Tablet readers are non-Catholic. Sorry to be negative but my own experience is that the Tablet is produced by self righteous bullies who will drag the Church over the nearest cliff rather than change their minds.
I think the turning point for the Tablet was the election of Pope Benedict XVI. Why? Because for years the publication has had a kind of “we are [the] church” attitude – we represent progressive pastoral thinking and theology, the “spirit of Vatican II,” we are on the inside track and the Magisterium isn’t, etc. etc. Of course this air of cultivated liberalism led the Tablet to develop an instinctive anti-Ratzinger attitude over many years. When the cardinals elected Cardinal Ratzinger as pope, it showed that the Tablet had in fact been on the outside track all along, blinded by its prejudices. Far from being the prophetic voice of Catholic renewal and the herald (no pun intended) of where things were going, the Tablet was revealed as the mouthpiece of an out-of-touch liberal clique within the upper echelons of British Catholicism. I am convinced that this débâcle has prompted some serious soul-searching at the Tablet which may yet lead to a gradual but significant change of direction.
The situation for Faithful Catholics is made worse by the fact that very few parents of children attending Catholic schools are Catholic or even Christian and they openly mock parents who unexpectedly conceive
That is one of the many reasons we are homeschooling our kids.
My only experience of the tablet was whilst I was doing an MA in Theology 10 years ago. I was so upset at the attack on the Catholic Church that I terminated the my subscription and asked that they refund my subscription money as a donation to SPUC. This they did
Re James,
You most certainly wouldn't be depriving your parents of grandchildren, if it meant following your vocation. If you were to become a Priest, what greater honour could you give them...many hundreds of souls would be influenced by you. We parents may influence 7/10/14 children...but a Priest...
It is true that large families are the seed bed of vocations, but no reason why God can't use an only child. But i take your point, that if choice came into it..many children would be best.
Incidentally, i have to say we have only ever received admiration for our family & i've never heard any criticism..perhaps i'm too busy seeing how gorgeous they all are..but seriously people have been very supportive.
If you experience the opposite it is sheer jealousy!
God bless you,
Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ
Great letter by Steve and Catriona and thought provoking comments from the blog readers.
As a father of six children (yes all with one and the same wife!) I truely understand what goes on out there, with the snipes and the 'ha ha - don't you have a TV set at home' kind of comments, many sadly from catholics.
My wife was even approached in a supermarket by a complete stranger and told not to have so many children (she was only pushing the two youngest in a double-buggy with the third, a toddler, holding on to the pushchair). She didn't tell him that we had another THREE at school! Ha - that would have given him a heart-attack.
Point is though that a contraceptive mentality fostered by lack of Church moral guidance and 'spine' in the early years of our marriage probably robbed us of the potential to have had maybe one or two more children.
The turning point in our married life came when my wife met with a couple of mum's outside the local Catholic primary school who had several children each. Their lifestyle was so loving, so authentically Christian and compelling that slowly their gentle and simple Christian witness influenced us into seeking a new way of living out our Christian life.
We ditched the 'heavy yoke' of enslavement to contraception, embraced the 'leap of Faith' called NFP and God blessed us with another four children over the coming years.
Honestly, tears well up in my eyes as I write this, because had we not changed our way our lives would have been so different and definitely very much poorer in the sense that we would not have experienced the unimaginable richness of family life that several children can bring.
Although the majority of comments from others about the size of our family tend to be negative some have been very positive, loving and encouraging. Quite a few older mums over the years have approached us and said how they wished that they'd had more children.
Also as we get older and hopefully wiser I personally enjoy seeing the looks on peoples faces and their responses when in conversation I tell tham that I am the proud father of six kids. You will be surprised how lively a discussion can spring from that. In one or two instances it has led to a deeper discussion on Faith matters.
Steve and Catriona, congratulations on your forthcoming 7th child, trust that everything will go fine. You have been truely Blessed by God and if you trust in Him, He will nourish your marriage and give you every means and strength for those wonderful years ahead.
To learn more about Church teaching and about natural family planning including the Seven Standards of eco-breastfeeding, download the free 84-page "How-To" NFP manual at www.nfpandmore.org. Couples are learning the method and teaching from this manual. Sheila
...many married Catholics ignore the teaching of the Church on contraception. This is only true because the teaching of the Church is rarely promoted at parish level and many Catholics believe that the use of contraception is subject to personal circumstances and therefore optional. This situation can only be rectified by strong leadership.
To say that widespread dissent from Humanae Vitae is only due to a lack of firmness in the promotion of HV, and that the only remedy is a more authoritarian insistence on adherence to it, paints a picture of Christian morality that excludes conscience, excludes the sensus fidelium and excludes, if you will, the possibility of attending to the prompting of the Spirit. Thank goodness it's more complicated, and richer, than that. Bishop Christopher Butler (in his book The Theology of Vatican II) paints a much subtler picture of how the supposed crisis in authority that stems from the flouting of HV might in many ways be good for the Church.
Well, Copernicus, I didn't say "only", nor did I use the word authoritarian: they are your interpretations on the post.
However, I would say that Bishop Butler and Bishop Worlock's "subtle" interpretations of Humanae Vitae have led us to the situation in which English Catholics now find themselves. Contraception is widely accepted in practice but nobody wants to admit that it doesn't work (cf. the statistics on STIs and pregnancies posted elsewhwere on this blog.)
The "subtle" interpretations have been rejected by many young Catholic couples who have seen the disastrous consequences of the contraceptive mentality and have enriched the Church with their families.
Dear Fr Tim,
It occured to me these last couple of days with the discussion on contracepttion, that us married couples have to acknowledge our dissent & accept full responsibility for it. I think we have to avoid blaming the clergy for our disobedience. It was only by God's grace that my husband & i changed our contraceptive mentality. I think we all knew what the Church really taught & kidded ourselves that no-one could live up to it. We were influenced possibly by the 60's permissiveness, pervading our own parent's generation. They always as far as i know knew what was right & wrong, even if they didn't practice it, so the 'teaching' must have been taught.
I suppose the only thing about the clergy was that you knew which priest to confess to!
But to re-iterate i don't blame the Priests, nor the Bishops, just ourselves.
People such as John & Sheila Kippley & their book, 'The Art of Natural Family Planning' have helped many couples at every stage in their married life.
I would have loved 12 children
( the original black & white Cheaper by the Dozen' being my favourite film! )but for serious medical reasons only managed 10!
The Kippleys explain the value of abstinence at such critical times.
Just taken 4 children to the evening Rosary at the Oratory, & thanked God for our decade of children!
Good night & God bless,
Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ
Fr. Tim, surely the best way to refute Catholics who “interpret Humanae Vitae subtly”—in other words, who ignore the teaching—is to draw attention to the abortifacient nature of the pill, the IUD and other forms of contraception. These methods of birth control are not “on-off switches” as is commonly supposed, but rather methods of killing fertilized embryos by preventing implantation—embryos which God has already infused with a spiritual soul. Much of the loose thinking about contraception among Catholics—from the episcopate down—results from their failure to grasp this simple but vital fact: human life, both physically and spiritually, begins at conception.
Viewed from this perspective, most women on the pill are in reality prolific mothers who are involved in a constant process of unknowingly conceiving and then spontaneously aborting their offspring, year in, year out.
My wife and I use natural family planning methods and we know exactly how many children we have. Couples who use contraceptives, on the other hand, have absolutely no idea how many children their sexual activities have generated, and they may be in for a nasty shock when eventually they find out…
Francis - you are absolutely right. But how do you go about getting this message across to the world at large let alone Catholics!
"The "subtle" interpretations have been rejected by many young Catholic couples who have seen the disastrous consequences of the contraceptive mentality and have enriched the Church with their families".
What do you mean by "many"? Can you quantify "many". In fact your comment (above) is indicative of a rather blinkered tone that is prevalent in "many" of your posts. The reality is Fr Tim, I suspect that very few young Catholic couples (I can not be certain!) are not using contraceptives.
If the Church is to survive in this country (I have my doubts that it will for what my views are worth), it will do so on the back of a healthy dose of Augustinian pessimism.
I sense that your priesthood would be enriched if you abandoned your involvement with the new movements. Themselves victims of misplaced optimism which owes more, ironically enough, to the Butler-Worlock ethos than it does to orthodox Catholic teaching. I include the Faith movement in that.
By their roots you will know them and the roots of the Faith movement are weird to say the least (just like the rest of them if we are being honest). Contrast the founder of Faith and his mother's "visions" with Dublin's very holy and down to earth Frank Duff!
One last point on contraception. To me the answer is the "D" word - demography. Western Europe is dying. Those with large families need "not be afraid". To any critic, simply respond: "My children will paying into your pension fund - you should be thanking me for them!"
You'll find that "many" Catholic couples in the various new movements wholeheartedly accept and live Humanae Vitae.
I agree with you that we need a healthy dose of Augustinian pessimism. But that is not actually incompatible with praising those who are courageously living the faith in this secular corner of the planet.
Why do you post anonymously?
I post anonymously because of what was said in the following:-
www.goodbyegoodmen.com
In short there is a culture of persecution in the Church against anyone who attempts to be orthodox. That persecution is subtle, nasty and aggressive. I have experienced it at first hand. Nobody can be trusted as Michael Rose demonstrates in his book.
I have nothing but sympathy for those couples who have been abused in Church because of their wonderful pro-life families. What these couples don't realise is that if Humanae Vitae is as much as discussed in the seminary by a trainee priest (it is simply ignored by most seminary staff), that trainee risks being persecuted by the authorities. If you don't believe me read the book; indeed a seminarian is often abused psychologically for "less" serious "crimes" than discussing the possibility that Humanae Vitae might be a good idea.
OK if you are a seminarian, no need to give your real name. But find an alias or something so we know it is the same person each time.
I went to seminaries between 1976 and 1985 - I am not unaware of the problem you mention. But let's not over-egg the pudding. "Nobody can be trusted" simply is not true: you can always find good, loyal friends.
And yes, I have read Michael Rose's book. You may be interested in the review I wrote for Faith Magazine.
Hi,
Don't want to be awkward, but Francis, you may have miscarried babies very early on in the menstrual cycle, so you might not know how many babies have been conceived. i don't think the abortion explanation will persuade those using contraception, it requires more of a psychic change than that.
Re Anonymous, the New Movements to my mind are a wonderful blessing to the Church. I attended a Continuity Meeting, organised by Miles Jesu, a movement whose purpose is to instill Catholic ideals in the world, & Continuity, to promote the Catholic Church in The British Isles, last night.
The Journal often includes testimonies from converts to the Catholic Church. These are so inspiring. Monsignor Graham Leonard ( Former Bishop of London), & John Gummer MP are members.
For more details re The Continuity Movement & or Miles Jesu, please contact
Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ on
rosary@blueyonder.co.uk
God bless
Fr. Tim, George asked me a couple of questions about my earlier comments on the close relationship between contraception and abortion, so I’d like to answer him briefly.
On the point about how we communicate this message to the wider world, I don’t have an answer. For the foreseeable future, Catholicism and Western secularism will continue to inhabit parallel intellectual universes, and if the average agnostic buys into the view that man is nothing more than a clever monkey, arguing against artificial contraception based on a spiritual view of the human race will be extremely difficult.
So it’s much easier to start with Catholics and to try and influence them. We all know that there are countless Catholic mothers who have their children baptized, teach them to pray, take them to Mass on Sunday and send them to Catholic schools, but who, for their own reasons (wanting to return to work, wanting to have complete control over their lives etc. etc.) ignore what the Church teaches on contraception. In most (if not all) cases, their decision is not based on “conscience” but is driven by lifestyle choices and a secularized perception of womanhood.
It is my conviction, however, that the majority of these Catholic women would never touch abortion with a bargepole. And if they had a detailed understanding of how the pill functions biologically, they could be persuaded to use natural family planning instead.
Of course, it is equally important for all Catholics to be properly taught about the existence of the soul and the fact God imbues every new human being with its spiritual component from the moment of its conception. A conception, moreover, which the so-called “contraceptive” pill does nothing to prevent…
"It could therefore be argued that Goodbye, Good Men is twenty years too late." Yet you yourself cite an example from Faith magazine of more than "twenty years" ago which resulted in the magazine being banned and readers "ridiculed". what chance would a Rose have had in the 1970s?
By the way, you do not actually review the book but simply defer to other critics usually priests of course. One of those critics cited was answered by Rose in an extended article that addressed his criticsms. In any event the "critic priest" is a close friend of one of the corrupt liberals mentioned by Rose in his book.
The only reason things have changed and thus enabling you to assert (erroneously in my view) that the book is "too late" is because of the scandals. In reality nothing INTRINSICALLY has changed. There is now just a lack of conviction on the part of modernists (given their project has ended in total failure) and many of them are simply getting too old to carry on. Moreover many younger modernists have embraced (or are more likely hiding in) the new movements.
I recall that Focolare was one of the most liberal "one World religion" advocates of the post-conciliar period (and that religion was not Catholicism!), yet they orchestrated the "Santo subito" cries at the Pope's funeral. A truly bizarre episode in the life of the Church but typical of the morphing process that the Church has undergone these last 6 years since the scandals errupted.
Similarly, the change in your seminary owes more to this morphing process than an authentic renewal experience.
Err, yes, as I said "But even if this book had been written in 1980, it would have had little effect."
No, I did not "defer" to the critics, I cited them. Not to do so would have been dishonest.
Your assertion that nothing intrinsically has changed is an insult to the young priests and lay people who are utterly loyal to the teaching of the magisterium and try sincerely to live it.
And who is to be the arbiter of what is authentic renewal? Shall we get our bibles out and swap texts? Or shall we defer to the Apostolic See?
Hi Francis,
I would imagine most women would know that the Pill can act as an aborticant, as i seem to remember 24 years ago when i was taking it that it stated the mode of action on the patient information leaflet. I'm sure women know as much if not more today.
It was reading Victoria Gillick's ' A Mother's Tale' when i was Head of Dept & with 2 children that i was inspired to drop the contraceptive mentality. We have 10 of our own now.
As Fr Tim says, the example of other women & Catholic families, that makes the difference. I don't mean to be critical Francis, but the fervour & love & compassion in the New Movements, has been a huge force for traditional acceptance of the Magisterium, of the Catholic Church.
There are many wonderful Priests, in training, i know several, & many already ordained.
Also the consecrated lay men (2 of whom we spent the evening with )are amazing in their knowledge of our Faith, & saintly in the way in which they live their lives, as are the consecrated lay-women.
The huge variety of gifts & ministries in the Church, should bring about a Unity. Particularly in this week when we pray for Christian Unity, we must remember, that we should be unified ourselves.
'That Jesus Christ founded only One Church
is an undisputable & undisputed fact.
Then who else but men divided it?
And the devil?
He is the 'father of lies' who creates confusion in individuals & socities.
His tactics are: divide & conquer.
God is always & only One, even in His Three Divine Persons.
God is One, Harmony, Peace, Order, Clarity, Unity, Positiveness, Concord.
He uses the most negative thing-sin- as an excuse to create
a much more sublime & elevated reality for men: the supernatural order.
(Taken from Ektenia or Litany for Unity)
by Very Reverend Fr. Alphonsus Maria Duran MJ & Rev.Fr. Paul Vota, MJ
"Or shall we defer to the Apostolic See?"
What has the Holy See got to do with this discussion? Determing whether renewal is taking place in the Church is not the role of the Magisterium or the Pope.
Interestingly, Ratzinger is more aware than anybody of the limitations of the Papacy and has written at some length on the subject. His grasp of its limitations is outstanding and rigorous, yet further proof (if one were needed) that he was the right man for the role.
I had not insulted those fine pro-life families. This discussion, if you recall, has been prompted by our mutual admiration of them.
The Church is simply mirroring what has happened politically in our World. The Catholic church always jumps on the bandwagon of the latest secular ideas just as those ideas are being discredited. It happened at Vatican II and is happening again.
The Catholic left have simply embraced "conservatism" just as the Jewish left wing intellectuals did in the United States in the 1970s. Those individuals now middle-aged and in positions of power have dominated the Bush presidency.
If you want proof of how bad things are I suggest you go to Zenit.org which demonstrates that the Catholic church is in a state of terminal decline in this country (in Scotland it is virtually extinct).
Anybody who talks about the Church without the preface that things are in a mess is usually missing the point somewhere. I am simply suggesting, as I have right from the start, that in reality most Catholic couples (I would suggest upwards of 90% if not more) ignore the Church's teaching on matters of sexual morality. In fact in my Cathedral parish a partner in a homosexual relationship distributes communion most Sundays. Par for the course in the Church today I would suggest and reflects the reality of things as they stand.
It is for the Holy See ultimately to judge the authenticity or otherwise of "new movements" when they are called into question. It did so for the Franciscans, the Umiliati, the Cathars and many others I am sure you are as familiar with as I am.
Apart from that, actually I agree with much of what you say. It is quite true that many on the Catholic left have embraced a pseudo-conservatism. It is also true that there have been genuine conversions, though and I think you don't give enough credit for that.
Don't worry - I don't need any further proof of how bad things are. We have been bashing on about this in Faith Magazine for a long time. But I can't understand why you feel it necessary to jump on any positive comment. There are lots of good things going on as well as all the muck. 'Twas ever thus in the Church.
Sorry, I should have added in all honesty that I made the dig about the Apostolic See to try and smoke you out if you were a sedevacantist. (Your comment about Pope Benedict puts that niggle to rest.) The problem is that with you posting anonymously, we still don't know anything about you. Can you not give yourself a nickname?
Hi anonymous,
Just to echo what Fr Tim says, there is much that is positive in the Catholic church. God is always positive (My friend Brad Poore MJ, gave a positive account of the spread of Miles Jesu around the World.) There are many conversions daily. 5 Anglican Bishops have converted...over 500 candidates were recieved in Westminster alone. Lutherans, episcopalians, muslims, agnostics, Jews (including the mass muderer Bernard Nathanson who slaughtered thousands of unborn,including his own, children, have converted to the Catholic Church.
We should focus on associations such as The National Association of Catholic families & the stirling work they do.
It's nice to be in agreement about the wonderful Pro-life families, but there is much more that is also positive. We live in a depressed world that wants to focus despairingly on the state of the Church. I think we have to be prepared to stand up for our Faith, but lets do it in a positive way.
Although not particularly Charismatic, myself, John Paul 11 was in favour of some aspects..Youth 2000 has its value
.to many.
The Mark of the True Christian
'Such as My love has been for you,
So must your love be for each other.
This is how all will know you are my disciples
if you have love for one another.'
(Jn 13.35)
God bless
Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ
Fr. Tim, Jackie has pointed out, quite rightly, that a pregnancy can end through very early miscarriage without any form of human intervention and without the parents ever knowing. So I accept that a married couple who don’t use contraceptives can, at best, only be 99% certain about how many children they have ever produced. But, by raising this matter, Jackie has helped to underscore my point.
Very simplistically, if I “arrive at the pearly gates” and God reveals to me that I have a child that my wife and I never knew we had because of early miscarriage, I will at least be able to look that child straight in the eye. And give him or her a big cuddle! If, on the other hand, I had been wilfully co-responsible for that child never having an earthly life, I don’t think the encounter would be nearly as cordial. And all the more so if the celestial “welcoming committee” included two dozen such children…
I also agree with a lot of what Jackie says about the positive example of family love in counteracting the contraceptive mentality, and the contribution of the new movements to promoting fidelity to Humanae Vitae. But I beg to differ on Jackie’s point about how widespread awareness is, among practising Catholic women using contraceptives, of the abortifacient workings of the pill. My female relatives and acquaintances who belong to this category tend to regard the pill merely as a benign “pause button.” Why? Because they have never got the point about God infusing the soul at the moment of conception.
By the way, Father, are you going to re-join this very interesting debate? I think someone is being paid to sidetrack you!
Yes, sorry, I did get a bit sidetracked there!
I agree that the abortifacient nature of the pill should be more widely known. But do not forget that nowadays, very few people use the argument "it's just a blob" of jelly against abortion. Yet women still have abortions, and men still encourage them. They know that they are killing a baby but feel that because of their circumstances they are entitled to do so. This is, of course, one of the reasons for "post abortion syndrome".
So although I agree that the abortifacient nature of the pill should be publicised, I think that it is also necessary to use the kind of arguments used by the excellent Janet Smith who looks at the facts regarding marriage breakdown, reported happiness in marriage etc. Many people do not have the confidence to follow Catholic teaching because they have been so indoctrinated to think that it will bring them misery.
For Catholics too, I feel that it is important to keep bashing on about the authoritative nature of the teaching of Christ and the magisterium, starting from the divnity of Christ and his own teaching,and showing that the Church makes his "but I say to you" present in the world in every age.
We can then show that different teachings have been ignored at different times (teaching on slavery, teaching on duelling are two good examples.) In each case it is the choice between the spirit of the age and the teaching of Christ. The punchline is that exactly the same applies in the case of Humanae Vitae.
(Actually, I was bashing on about that only today in my sermon!)
"try and smoke you out if you were a sedevacantist"
Pior to suggesting that Ratzinger was the correct choice for Pope (scarcely a dramatic statement on my part), I said nothing which would suggest that I am a sedevacantist; but as Rose demonstrates, mind games play such an important part in the life of the modern Church ...
"Sadie Vacantist" - excellent nickname! Very funny.
1200 word comment? No thanks. Start your own blog for that. What you do is give a link to the source, quote salient bits, add pithy observations...
Yet again ordinary catholics, like me, who try to do their best get a bashing from those of you who are more pius. We use contraception, whatever method, because we can't afford to have dozens of kids. Yet we still attend mass, take communion and send our kids to catholic schools. Why? Cos we try our hardest to lead good lives but are faced with the day to day reality of pounds shillings and pence. Good luck to all those of you who can have 10 kids and don't use contraception. But give us a break. Fr Tim and every parish priest knows that 95% of catholic couples practice contraception and if the catholic hierachy attack us for it they know the pulpits will empty even quicker.
Seamus
As to your second comment, yes, fair enough, there was nothing directly to suggest you are a sedevacantist. But I'm not playing "mind games" of the sort that Rose illustrates in his book. That is the kind of slide that makes me alert to possible trouble.
Fr. Tim, I’d like to refer Seamus to the very first comment posted on this subject by Fr. Stephen. Seamus –- please don’t be deceived into thinking that natural family planning = 10+ kids, but the pill = 2. It's the biggest propaganda lie in the world. Unfortunately it's propaganda that is believed by just about all pupils at Catholic girls secondary schools!
My wife and I were taken aback by the reliability of natural family planning methods. We had more than half expected one or two “surprises” given how dismissive modern medicine is about the “ineffectiveness” of NFP. But with a small amount of self-discipline and not an unreasonable amount of abstinence, couples can have as much control as they want over the size of their family using NFP. You have to be very deliberate indeed to have a family of ten children. And the increasing number of couples getting married well into their 30s have to be very deliberate to have a family of more than two...
Hi Seamus,
I understand your financial considerations, but take it from me it's cheaper staying at home, with one wage than it ever was on 2 wages, with 2 kids, child-minder fees...up to date clothes,play stations, cars etc etc. God does provide honestly. We're a very working class family...we shop in charity shops & Aldi. I like the motto, 'use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without!'. Our kids don't seem to have suffered. We spent £500 total on food & presents for Christmas. Friends of mine with one child spent that on one. I always say about our children, that they 'play with their brothers & sisters' & don't need so many toys. a real live kid is better than a toy in my view.
I think if you are aware that contraception is a sin, to receive Holy Communion, is a sin. I remeber my parents went to Mass but not communion, because they were contracepting, & i absolutely shudder at my own presumption 7 sacriligious communions when we were first married.
I wonder, Seamus if our Parish Priests, would be able to educate catholics more on the reasons for the acceptance of HV,whether it would be more accepted. Our priests have spoken from the pulpit...i don't rember them attacking us.
Also using nfp doesn't necessarily mean you have to have a large family. I was just fortunate in my health holding out, but now i have serious reasons for postponing indefinitely another pregnancy. If you have similarly serious psychological,financial, medical reasons you wouldn't be expected to have 10 kids. it's just that ones concience has to be correctly formed.
I do cringe when i see hundreds walking up the aisle to receive Our Lord, without a thought for The Sacrament Of confession. I know many are co-habiting,contracepting etc..but who am i to judge when i was similarly ignorant or disobedient.
I find the Priests infinitely patient & merciful, ready always to forgive & gently lead us to the fullness of Christ's teaching. After all we are all sinners. Perhaps those of us who made the change from the contraceptive mentality, should be ready to encourage & explain our reasons for doing so. At the end of the day, we have 10 very good reasons for doing so & at least at the end of my life looking back i will have no regrets on that score.
God bless,Seamus
( Why not give it a go & join the 5%..i guarantee you won't regret it)
(v. finally my dad was brought up in Co. Dublin, with 11 brothers & sisters, in a tiny house with 2 bedrooms. he was the 10th child..if he hadn't been born, neither would i!)
Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ
Hey Goeorge,
Easy does it! Many people do equate nfp with large families. I take the point re the effectiveness though...every last one of our children was planned practically to the month. I have to explain this when people think we had 10 mistakes! It shows just how effective it is..because we could have worked it round the other way & not had any!
I do think we must be kind to each other & calling anonymous a moron, won't help anyone. Fr Tim can handle this situation...no doubt..I never felt insulted..
God bless,
Mrs Jackie Parkes MJ
Oops. Sorry folks! I didn't mean to publish George's comment - and he probably didn't expect me to. It's gone now.
Ok, thanks for the kind words of advice Jackie and Francis. I take your point and I admire your devotion. I didn't see George's comments on 'anonymous'If it were about me (seamus) then may God forgive him!
However, enough. This blog should be about open discussion, free from abuse.
I detract. I am a bit confused. Perhaps you can help me out here?
I always thought the Church taught that THE purpose of sexual intercourse was procreation? If one practices NFP the intention is not to reproduce, but to express one's love for one's partner. Is the problem of contraception not that it 'reduces'(big inverted commas here for emphasis) sexual intercourse to pleasure, or is it that it prevents the creation of humand life?
And another thing. What does one do about communion when one's partner who is not a Catholic uses contraception. Does this condemn the Catholic partner to never being able to take holy communion?
Seamus
Seamus
if you are contracepting I suggest you refrain from communion. Take a blessing. If I have succumbed to the sin of lust that is what I do until I have been to confession.
Seedy
A big thank you for Fr. Tim for so diligently responding to the posts. He is also willing to accept mild criticism which is admirable. I think we can safely conclude that he is not just another Anglican with an Irish name.
"Sid"
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