Therefore every scribe who has been trained for the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure what is new and what is old.
Fr. Tim, I agree with your idea to open a debate about the Catholic Church being forced to go underground. It’s timely. Our current difficulties with state-imposed gay adoption are just a foretaste of what is to come.
Whenever I hear about bishops launching consultation exercises to “plan for a diocese with fewer priests,” I often wonder if they’re barking up the wrong tree. I would have thought that the most immediate danger facing the Catholic Church in the Western world -- and one for which we need to plan very carefully -- is state oppression.
I don’t want to minimize the problem of the priest shortage (or be alarmist), but surely we are very close to the time when Catholic bishops, priests and teachers are going to be brought before the courts over certain church teachings which, in the eyes of the law, are “discriminatory,” “likely to incite religious hatred,” “homophobic,” etc. etc.
Likewise, with all the equal opportunities legislation in place or in the pipeline, seminary rectors and the superiors of religious orders are likely to face jail for running institutions which are not open to members of both sexes, or which are closed to “gay, lesbian and transgendered people.” And our Catholic schools, agencies and publishing houses could be heavily fined, coerced or closed down for propagating or acting in accordance with Catholic doctrines which are deemed illegal.
So what’s the contingency plan for all this? Are the bishops only planning to fight militant judicial secularism with a mum’s army of extraordinary ministers?
Sadly Fr Tim this is only too true. Perhaps all this situation though will help persuade the bishops that there is no point trying to be nice to the Government and trying to adapt to "modern society" (in the worst possible sense of that phrase). This very notion must have been what Bl. Pius IX was condemning in Syllabus 80: "The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization". If this is progress...If this is civilisation...
It looks like the struggle between Church and state is about to be won by the state. Some would say that it is about time that Catholics were forced to accept and respect the human rights of other minorities.
But if this is a 'human rights' issue and the Catholics and homosexuals were both represented in the court of human rights, I don't understand how the decision would be made re. which minorities rights take precedence over the other.
Hi Fr Tim, just came back from a long weekend in Rome. Let's see now Catholic Churches running the full length of the busiest and most fashionable street in Rome the Via Del Corso. Whilst shopping in Stefanel, Chopin etc... we kept popping into all the Churches - some were part way through Holy Mass, others had the Blessed Sacrament Adoration. Old and young were in the pews devoutly following Mass or in private prayer.
Papa Benedicts Angelus and address to the crowds was incredible. Thousands of people in St Peter's Square. On Sunday the sun was blazing down on everyone it was glorious. Our wonderful Holy Father was in tremendous spirit and the faithful responded with 'Viva Papa', waving flags, trumpets, whistles, kids jumping up and down waving banners, old people shedding tears of joy. Just stupendous - so priveledged to have been there. Straight into the Basilica for Holy Mass at the main altar. Looking up at the fabulous stained glass window depicting the Holy Spirit, I said to myself 'yes Holy Spirit, this is how it will all be at the end of time' meanwhile we are in this world and have to pray more for our seperated bretheren, heathens, pagans, England and fight the 'spirit of the times' which is anything BUT holy!
With regards the photo, no we didn't get to the Catacombs this time round! But we can start digging in Blackfen now! Ha ha ha!!!
Personally I don't see a long term threat to the Church from Labour - except potentially in an independent Scotland - Labour are burnt out and as and when Gordon Browns "Miracle Economy" - which seem to be to be in reality a house of cards founded on personal and government debt - collapses, it will sweep new Labour (and Dave's new conservative party with it.
The result, I fear, will be a "reactionary" hardline authoritarian government that gains power as a result of the "decadence" of our current "ruling elite", such a government could pose far more of a threat to the Catholic Church as well as many others (such as Homosexuals for example).
Voting turnout levels are already down to about 50% and as they fall ever downwards it becomes increasingly easier for a demagogue to capture the support of those not currently voting as the lower the overall turnout the less votes the demagogue needs.
As far as the heirachy are concerned, they would be better off stopping negotiating and issuing an edict that any Catholic MP or Peer who votes for this will be excommunicated
I noticed this headline on Yahoo.co.uk: "BLAIR OVERRULES CHURCH". Quite a high theology of prime-ministership. Whilst he has the legal power to overrule any decision of the Anglicans, its hard to see how he could overrule us. If the Government beleived that it had the power to overrule the Church, would this contravene cc.1374 and 1375 and so incur an interdict or other just penalty?
Fr. Tim, when this blog is banned by the authorities for crimes against political correctness, we can all meet you at Chislehurst caves and have our own catacombs. :-)
LOL...OK, I admit to being a typical dumb American. :-)
About the underground Church...over here in the US many of us have discussed this. Catholic Charities stopped their adoptions because of the laws...it was either conform or nothing. They chose to stop their adoption ministries rather than be forced to adopt to gay couples. In California, they are passing laws which are completely adverse to the Constitution, and they are getting away with it. They are enforcing laws very specifically AGAINST the Catholic Church.
We are soon to go the way of Canada, for any suggestion that homosexual behavior is "hate speech" and results in prison time for the one who dares to speak as such.
I hate to say it, but I think we are headed for the underground. I am an aspiring teacher (I do teach in the parish, not professionally), but I think we will see a time when our speech will be curbed in favor of the vitriolic minority. We will be punished for speaking the truth, the very simple truth.
It's a slippery slope and it's getting steep very quickly.
I don't know how it is over there, but here, churches are "tax exempt", and any infraction against what someone somewhere thinks is adverse to the non-existent "Seperation of Church and State" clause results in threats to pull the parish's tax-exempt status.
It won't be long before we won't be able to discuss the fact that marriage is a sacrament involving only a man and a woman, that abortion is murder, etc etc.
We're a bunch of lobsters in a pot which is quickly coming to a boil, and the vast majority of people are so wrapped up in their complacence that they can't even acknowledge that it's time to overturn the pot.
Adoro te devote - unless the UK authorities build more prisons (they are massively overcrowded here) I doubt they'll send us non-homosexuals for a stretch inside!
More than likely they'll send us for 're-education' classes where we will be subjected to hours of dubious BBC programmes and a continuous movie reel of Brokeback Mountain!!!
We'll have to wear the rainbow sashes while we go about our daily work as these will show the world that we are dissenters from the government's One World and all inclusive all encompassing religion to the 'tut-tuts' and scorn of all our PC neighbours.
Your credit cards, bank accounts, tax exemptions (joke!), identity etc... will be eliminated or moderated etc... etc... etc...
In truth, Catholics will become Enemies of the State!!
Just reading the above & slight diversion..Just taken one of my daughters to the orthodontist. e kind of finds us amusing, since this is my 5th daughter! He was asking what they all want to be...well we have one studying medicine & next one wants to do law, the 4th forensic science, & ary in the chair..football..or a PE Teacher. He asked about the boys & i said they want to be Priests. e looked a bit shocked, but then said it's a kind of honour isn't it? I said for sure it is, but they are only young yet. Then he said, the thing i don't get is this celibacy thing..i mean it's not natural is it? I said we all are called to chastity..7 celibacy at times. I said what if in marriage your husband or wife is ill or something..that made him stop for a minute. Then he said we could speak for ages on this but would have to agree to disagree...well excuse me but who cares Mr orthodontist what you think about Priestly celibacy? He said so you agree with it do you? To which i gave a i most certainly do! End of converstion. He is actually a very nice man..my question about all this is (To Fr Tim),do we carry apologetic information in our handbags?lol Mine is bursting at the seams...would you follow up the said conversation, & give him written info or just pray?
This is a hard one to call and depends a lot on his personality. Fromwhat you say, it sounds as thought the best thing would be to bring up some converstation-starter each time you visit. (Have a nice holiday? Great, we found this really beautiful Church...) that sort of thing.
If he is the kind of person who would not run a mile from someone who had tracts ready to hand out, the CTS leaflets are very good.
Thanks for that..so.many typos but you get the picture.... I had to laugh..it was my daughter Mary in the chair..with a mouth full of gunk! An ideal opportunity for mom to evangelise as you know what some teenagers are like...she would have normally been trying to shut me up!
The dentist did mention someone who had worked for them who left to be a Priest...Yes gentle discussion would probably help.
The tracts idea is very good..i must speak to Miles Jesu as i know they do tracts.
I have the CTS booklet on Homosexuality & have been too afraid to show it the light of day...prayers for courage needed.
Just been down to a Latin Mass for Sebastian/Oratorian. Wow i didn't know Fr Guy Nichols voice was that good.His singing is absolutely beautiful & made the Mass very special...kind of transported to Heaven. Wonderful. My little boy Andrew held the incense boat..is that what it's called?
They're massively overcrowded here, too, although getting better. The political causes (buying votes through pretend "solutions" that cater only to the ignorant) have enforced mandatory sentencing. What a waste.
So they won't really care if they pile a bunch of Catholics into the prisons.
Yeah, it's an exaggeration, but I don't think we're really that far away from facing the reality of true persecution over here. I know Canada has been hit hard by the gay police. It is truly chilling.
And the "re-education" classes...they're already doing that. They call it "diversity training".
'Diversity Training'???? - Haaaa! I think that pup is already being slipped ever so covertly into our schools - yes even Catholic Schools - under the guise of PHSE classes from age 5 upwards. Goes something like: 1/Wash yourselves daily 2/Eat an apple a day 3/Have you ever questioned your sexuality 4/ Wear clean socks every day 5/Fibre is good for you 6/Don't eat too many McDonalds 7/At what age did you start having these transgender feelings 8/What is your home postcode 9/Do you know where to get the morning after pill 10/Do you know where to get abortion advice 11/Don't forget to give teddy a kiss before you go to bed. Get the idea.
You think I'm joking - such a situation arose in a local Catholic School in the last few weeks where a questionnaire was simply handed out to Year 8 and 10 children in class at the beginning of the school day and the kids were told to answer the questions - over a hundred questions many of which were diabolically referring to homosexual feelings and inclinations, many about contraception etc.... sickening.
Thank God a few parents got the alert from their kids when they came back from school 'Mummy, we were asked to answer some very rude questions today' - so tha alarm bells went up, the Head and Governors were alerted to the real nature of this questionnaire which was recalled from the Government Agency that had sent it out to all the schools in the local borough. The papers were shredded - but the damage had been done.
Yes - 'diversity training' straight off the back of the diversity garbage that our bishops happily signed up to recently.
george, I don't think you're joking at all. The same thing is happening here; there is a local charter school which is inflicting the gay lifestyle upon the same age group. Something about a book about "Two Mommies", and of course, the teacher in question is an active militant lesbian.
The school will not allow the parents "opt out" their children from exposure to this propaganda. They even went so far as to suggest that parents don't know what's good for their children and that they don't have a right to bring them up according to such "restrictive" moral teachings.
23 comments:
I love it! I might have to nab it for some news at some point, if that's okay?
Oh, and I just spotted the Catholic Dilemmas section. Good for you.
Is that the Underground Church, or the end of the line?
;-)
If our encounters with the Government and it's proposed legislation is anything to go by, the pic might be quite prophetic
Fr. Tim, I agree with your idea to open a debate about the Catholic Church being forced to go underground. It’s timely. Our current difficulties with state-imposed gay adoption are just a foretaste of what is to come.
Whenever I hear about bishops launching consultation exercises to “plan for a diocese with fewer priests,” I often wonder if they’re barking up the wrong tree. I would have thought that the most immediate danger facing the Catholic Church in the Western world -- and one for which we need to plan very carefully -- is state oppression.
I don’t want to minimize the problem of the priest shortage (or be alarmist), but surely we are very close to the time when Catholic bishops, priests and teachers are going to be brought before the courts over certain church teachings which, in the eyes of the law, are “discriminatory,” “likely to incite religious hatred,” “homophobic,” etc. etc.
Likewise, with all the equal opportunities legislation in place or in the pipeline, seminary rectors and the superiors of religious orders are likely to face jail for running institutions which are not open to members of both sexes, or which are closed to “gay, lesbian and transgendered people.” And our Catholic schools, agencies and publishing houses could be heavily fined, coerced or closed down for propagating or acting in accordance with Catholic doctrines which are deemed illegal.
So what’s the contingency plan for all this? Are the bishops only planning to fight militant judicial secularism with a mum’s army of extraordinary ministers?
Is that like RC Cola?
(Did you have that in England? I grew up, when we went on family trips, RC Cola and Hamburgers at truckstops.)
Are we going to reduce the Church to substandard cafes with generic sacraments? Why not become protestant?
Oh, wait...some Catholics ARE protestant...they just like to CLAIM to be Catholic...
Sadly Fr Tim this is only too true. Perhaps all this situation though will help persuade the bishops that there is no point trying to be nice to the Government and trying to adapt to "modern society" (in the worst possible sense of that phrase). This very notion must have been what Bl. Pius IX was condemning in Syllabus 80: "The Roman Pontiff can, and ought to, reconcile himself, and come to terms with progress, liberalism and modern civilization". If this is progress...If this is civilisation...
It looks like the struggle between Church and state is about to be won by the state. Some would say that it is about time that Catholics were forced to accept and respect the human rights of other minorities.
But if this is a 'human rights' issue and the Catholics and homosexuals were both represented in the court of human rights, I don't understand how the decision would be made re. which minorities rights take precedence over the other.
Adoro te - it is a spoof "London Underground" sign. Sorry if non-english readers didn't get this.
Mark - feel free to use it.
Hi Fr Tim, just came back from a long weekend in Rome. Let's see now Catholic Churches running the full length of the busiest and most fashionable street in Rome the Via Del Corso. Whilst shopping in Stefanel, Chopin etc... we kept popping into all the Churches - some were part way through Holy Mass, others had the Blessed Sacrament Adoration. Old and young were in the pews devoutly following Mass or in private prayer.
Papa Benedicts Angelus and address to the crowds was incredible. Thousands of people in St Peter's Square. On Sunday the sun was blazing down on everyone it was glorious. Our wonderful Holy Father was in tremendous spirit and the faithful responded with 'Viva Papa', waving flags, trumpets, whistles, kids jumping up and down waving banners, old people shedding tears of joy. Just stupendous - so priveledged to have been there. Straight into the Basilica for Holy Mass at the main altar. Looking up at the fabulous stained glass window depicting the Holy Spirit, I said to myself 'yes Holy Spirit, this is how it will all be at the end of time' meanwhile we are in this world and have to pray more for our seperated bretheren, heathens, pagans, England and fight the 'spirit of the times' which is anything BUT holy!
With regards the photo, no we didn't get to the Catacombs this time round! But we can start digging in Blackfen now! Ha ha ha!!!
"Sorry if non-english readers didn't get this" - it was pretty obvious to the Scots (and probably to the Welsh and Irish as well). LOL
Personally I don't see a long term threat to the Church from Labour - except potentially in an independent Scotland - Labour are burnt out and as and when Gordon Browns "Miracle Economy" - which seem to be to be in reality a house of cards founded on personal and government debt - collapses, it will sweep new Labour (and Dave's new conservative party with it.
The result, I fear, will be a "reactionary" hardline authoritarian government that gains power as a result of the "decadence" of our current "ruling elite", such a government could pose far more of a threat to the Catholic Church as well as many others (such as Homosexuals for example).
Voting turnout levels are already down to about 50% and as they fall ever downwards it becomes increasingly easier for a demagogue to capture the support of those not currently voting as the lower the overall turnout the less votes the demagogue needs.
As far as the heirachy are concerned, they would be better off stopping negotiating and issuing an edict that any Catholic MP or Peer who votes for this will be excommunicated
Are we headed underground or worse still - being led down the tube
I noticed this headline on Yahoo.co.uk: "BLAIR OVERRULES CHURCH". Quite a high theology of prime-ministership. Whilst he has the legal power to overrule any decision of the Anglicans, its hard to see how he could overrule us. If the Government beleived that it had the power to overrule the Church, would this contravene cc.1374 and 1375 and so incur an interdict or other just penalty?
Fr. Tim, when this blog is banned by the authorities for crimes against political correctness, we can all meet you at Chislehurst caves and have our own catacombs. :-)
Yeah - If I can get authorised as an exorcist, we can chase out the demon from there too!
LOL...OK, I admit to being a typical dumb American. :-)
About the underground Church...over here in the US many of us have discussed this. Catholic Charities stopped their adoptions because of the laws...it was either conform or nothing. They chose to stop their adoption ministries rather than be forced to adopt to gay couples. In California, they are passing laws which are completely adverse to the Constitution, and they are getting away with it. They are enforcing laws very specifically AGAINST the Catholic Church.
We are soon to go the way of Canada, for any suggestion that homosexual behavior is "hate speech" and results in prison time for the one who dares to speak as such.
I hate to say it, but I think we are headed for the underground. I am an aspiring teacher (I do teach in the parish, not professionally), but I think we will see a time when our speech will be curbed in favor of the vitriolic minority. We will be punished for speaking the truth, the very simple truth.
It's a slippery slope and it's getting steep very quickly.
I don't know how it is over there, but here, churches are "tax exempt", and any infraction against what someone somewhere thinks is adverse to the non-existent "Seperation of Church and State" clause results in threats to pull the parish's tax-exempt status.
It won't be long before we won't be able to discuss the fact that marriage is a sacrament involving only a man and a woman, that abortion is murder, etc etc.
We're a bunch of lobsters in a pot which is quickly coming to a boil, and the vast majority of people are so wrapped up in their complacence that they can't even acknowledge that it's time to overturn the pot.
/rant
Adoro te devote - unless the UK authorities build more prisons (they are massively overcrowded here) I doubt they'll send us non-homosexuals for a stretch inside!
More than likely they'll send us for 're-education' classes where we will be subjected to hours of dubious BBC programmes and a continuous movie reel of Brokeback Mountain!!!
We'll have to wear the rainbow sashes while we go about our daily work as these will show the world that we are dissenters from the government's One World and all inclusive all encompassing religion to the 'tut-tuts' and scorn of all our PC neighbours.
Your credit cards, bank accounts, tax exemptions (joke!), identity etc... will be eliminated or moderated etc... etc... etc...
In truth, Catholics will become Enemies of the State!!
Just reading the above & slight diversion..Just taken one of my daughters to the orthodontist. e kind of finds us amusing, since this is my 5th daughter! He was asking what they all want to be...well we have one studying medicine & next one wants to do law, the 4th forensic science, & ary in the chair..football..or a PE Teacher. He asked about the boys & i said they want to be Priests. e looked a bit shocked, but then said it's a kind of honour isn't it? I said for sure it is, but they are only young yet. Then he said, the thing i don't get is this celibacy thing..i mean it's not natural is it? I said we all are called to chastity..7 celibacy at times. I said what if in marriage your husband or wife is ill or something..that made him stop for a minute. Then he said we could speak for ages on this but would have to agree to disagree...well excuse me but who cares Mr orthodontist what you think about Priestly celibacy? He said so you agree with it do you? To which i gave a i most certainly do! End of converstion. He is actually a very nice man..my question about all this is (To Fr Tim),do we carry apologetic information in our handbags?lol Mine is bursting at the seams...would you follow up the said conversation, & give him written info or just pray?
God bless,
Jackie
This is a hard one to call and depends a lot on his personality. Fromwhat you say, it sounds as thought the best thing would be to bring up some converstation-starter each time you visit. (Have a nice holiday? Great, we found this really beautiful Church...) that sort of thing.
If he is the kind of person who would not run a mile from someone who had tracts ready to hand out, the CTS leaflets are very good.
Dear Fr Tim,
Thanks for that..so.many typos but you get the picture.... I had to laugh..it was my daughter Mary in the chair..with a mouth full of gunk! An ideal opportunity for mom to evangelise as you know what some teenagers are like...she would have normally been trying to shut me up!
The dentist did mention someone who had worked for them who left to be a Priest...Yes gentle discussion would probably help.
The tracts idea is very good..i must speak to Miles Jesu as i know they do tracts.
I have the CTS booklet on Homosexuality & have been too afraid to show it the light of day...prayers for courage needed.
Just been down to a Latin Mass for Sebastian/Oratorian. Wow i didn't know Fr Guy Nichols voice was that good.His singing is absolutely beautiful & made the Mass very special...kind of transported to Heaven. Wonderful. My little boy Andrew held the incense boat..is that what it's called?
Fr Tim, do you say Mass in Latin?
God bless,
Jackie
george,
They're massively overcrowded here, too, although getting better. The political causes (buying votes through pretend "solutions" that cater only to the ignorant) have enforced mandatory sentencing. What a waste.
So they won't really care if they pile a bunch of Catholics into the prisons.
Yeah, it's an exaggeration, but I don't think we're really that far away from facing the reality of true persecution over here. I know Canada has been hit hard by the gay police. It is truly chilling.
And the "re-education" classes...they're already doing that. They call it "diversity training".
'Diversity Training'???? - Haaaa! I think that pup is already being slipped ever so covertly into our schools - yes even Catholic Schools - under the guise of PHSE classes from age 5 upwards. Goes something like: 1/Wash yourselves daily 2/Eat an apple a day 3/Have you ever questioned your sexuality 4/ Wear clean socks every day 5/Fibre is good for you 6/Don't eat too many McDonalds 7/At what age did you start having these transgender feelings 8/What is your home postcode 9/Do you know where to get the morning after pill 10/Do you know where to get abortion advice 11/Don't forget to give teddy a kiss before you go to bed. Get the idea.
You think I'm joking - such a situation arose in a local Catholic School in the last few weeks where a questionnaire was simply handed out to Year 8 and 10 children in class at the beginning of the school day and the kids were told to answer the questions - over a hundred questions many of which were diabolically referring to homosexual feelings and inclinations, many about contraception etc.... sickening.
Thank God a few parents got the alert from their kids when they came back from school 'Mummy, we were asked to answer some very rude questions today' - so tha alarm bells went up, the Head and Governors were alerted to the real nature of this questionnaire which was recalled from the Government Agency that had sent it out to all the schools in the local borough. The papers were shredded - but the damage had been done.
Yes - 'diversity training' straight off the back of the diversity garbage that our bishops happily signed up to recently.
God help us.
george, I don't think you're joking at all. The same thing is happening here; there is a local charter school which is inflicting the gay lifestyle upon the same age group. Something about a book about "Two Mommies", and of course, the teacher in question is an active militant lesbian.
The school will not allow the parents "opt out" their children from exposure to this propaganda. They even went so far as to suggest that parents don't know what's good for their children and that they don't have a right to bring them up according to such "restrictive" moral teachings.
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