- All Male Program
- Masculinity of Discipline and Precision Required
- Headed by the Pastor
- Liturgically traditional parish with orthodoxy in doctrine
- Strong Catholic identity within the family
- Large homeschooling population
I'm not terribly gone on "mission/vision statements" but Assumption Grotto has a short statement on its homepage that strikes me as a good indication of what you might expect in that parish:
Assumption Grotto Church is a vibrant Detroit parish that champions fidelity to Catholic teaching, family values, and the rich cultural patrimony of the Catholic Church.Here'a a photo of their Christmas Midnight Mass:
17 comments:
Wonderful..but one can have excellent male servers taught correctly from families who don't homeschool too. My boys 8 & 10 serve the Low, High & Tridentine Masses with great devotion..they are not homeschooled apart from obviously being taught & practicing their Faith at home.
That to me is 'homeschooling'.
Fr. Tim,
Come to Detroit for a visit. I imagine you and Fr. Perrone would get on splendidly.
This morning Fr. offered the Holy Mass in honor of Sts. John Fisher and Thomas More outside at the Grotto.
David
Mrs Jackie Parks:
You are so right to point out that homeschooling families don't have a monopoly on churning out good altar boys.
I have not gotten to that point just yet and will be sure to make that clear when I get into the homeschooling issue.
We too have many excellent altar boys who attend public school, which is why I will also be focusing on the strong Catholic identity I see at my new parish (only been there two years) within the family.
In a nutshell, family revolves around faith, not faith around the family.
I'll have to start writing my next post in this series, which will be forthcoming within the next week.
Thanks again for reminding me of your point.
DAVID: Spot on about Fr. Perrone and Fr. Tim. I suggested that if Fr. Tim, or any other priest-readers plan on ever visiting Detroit to drop me an email at TeDeumBlog@aol.com and I will help to make arrangements for a meeting.
Sure go for it. After all it's not like there aren't minor orders. It was just a rumor they were abolished in the 60s. We all know how young boys were always formally installed in the minor orders of the priesthood, don't we? It's not like the Vatican declared that "ALL [including members of the church under age 18] are "equal" in dignity.
It isn't as if the girls can't see that some boys they go to school with serve mass and can put on a "holy holy" act on Sunday-- and then turn around in school and support abortion "rights" in class room debate, and brag about how many girl's pants they allegedly got in to. No, no. MUCH more worthy to serve at mass then their worthless sisters.
Of course the girls won't resent this. Not at all. They're little dummies who will never complain. Except, of course, silently. And who cares about that. IT's not as if they were going to grow up to be men with opinions we'd have to respect. Not like they're going to have to teach a new generation of girls to swallow their anger at the injustice. Nah. Not like it's worth having girls learn to pay intimate attention to every detail that happens at mass too.
Girls aren't worth father's time anyway. If there's not a father in the home, why should they have a man who has faith in the Lord teach them something, and show them that there are good men who deeply have faith in the Lord? Why have the priest show the girls that he is just as concerned about THEIR growth in the love of the Mass as he is with the boys? That's just "women's work." It's the boys that are the important ones. If the girls want to help they can wash the purificators like their moms do. Sometimes father will remember to say "thank you" and that's all any women needs to feel herself a person of worth.
Karen - I respect your passion on this but I think you are missing the point. Training boys to be decent men helps to avoid exactly the attitudes you complain about. It is the boys who are neglected in many parishes.
Fr. Tim, I think boys of course should be encouraged to serve mass too. Just don't forget about their sisters, or think the girls don't think it isn't an injustice if they don't get to serve mass too! But I think it a big mistake to reserve serving the mass exclusively to boys. In our parish both serve mass and their drop out rates aren't any different. Every kid I have ever trained at our church has stayed on until they were at least 16, and many until 18, and they go off to college.
I'm not against separate boys and girls groups for some things...scouting for instance, when they are young. And I think it's a good idea to give kids the choice for all boys/all girls/or coed secondary education. All have their merits and drawbacks. But there just is no equivalency for teaching the average Catholic youngster about the Mass...in a "normal" setting. A kid serving mass has to REALLY pay attention.
In the last few months, I've had the pleasure of training two new servers for our Sunday 5:15 Mass. We are a church that has a small geographic area, BUT a great amount of tourist traffic, and no school...so it's largely a somewhat older congregation than most parishes - no school, so fewer children. The two kids we just have trained are both 10 - one boy - one girl. EAch set of parents was worried that their youngster would be too fidgety and not straighten up and "behave" themselves in front on the congregation. But both kids were eager. Francis can already solo serve mass himself, and Catherine could if we get her a bowl that she could manage with one hand. Both kids sit up reasonably straight and for quite a length of time...as father gives long sermons. (22 minutes is his norm!) Hard to slouch when you are in a chair and not a pew and people are "looking at you." Sometimes they serve together and we give them their breaks so they don't "have" to serve every week, otherwise, in my experience, a kid could get burned out, and we try and avoid that.
Both have made remarkable strides, and now know the names of the items used at Mass. Catherine had a little further to go, as she doesn't go to a parochial school. Parents can't believe the change in them. From kids who had to be cajoled to "pay attention" and not slouch over in the pew during the sermon to kids who could be trusted to ring the bells at the right time, and give all those nice little bows in the right places.
They know not to sit down before father does and are very still during the consecration except when they absolutely have to move. I had one of the retiring servers give them a talk about "drawing focus."
The six month difference is like night and day. I show up in the sacristy 25 minutes before Mass, and the kids have beaten me there and are already working on getting everything in its right place.
How many times does a person get to stand right next to a miracle when it happens? This is the joy our servers get. And I'd hate for the girls to miss out! To be able to look at "mere bread" in once instance, and then behold "the lamb of God" in the next is something we pray never leaves them.
Oh, and the story I mentioned regards the kid serving Mass one day and taking the so-called pro-choice side the next day in school? That wasn't a hypothetical. Happened to me. It was unfair then, and it would be unfair now to go back to the old way. It was a petty injustice that didn't need to be.
Karen - in my parish we have girls and boys serving. This is something I inherited. The girls serve very well and I appreciate their contribution to the life of the parish. (I have seen the process you describe of parents worrying about their children fidgeting and then being surprised at how well they serve.) But until recently, it was 75% girls. A similar thing happened with a youth group that I ran a couple of years ago - except that in that case all the boys dropped out one by one as the girls dominated, were more socially adept and coped better with informal grouping.
What I have done recently is to train a couple of boys to serve the old rite of Mass. They love doing it and are beginning to interest one or two more boys who can come to a club type atmosphere which is geared to boys. This has generally helped to create an atmosphere where boys are welcome, can get together and are not simply the one or two boys in a crowd of girls.
In the average parish, involving girls and women is not the problem - I estimate that in any parish activity, 60-75% of the participants are female. The challenge is encouraging boys and men to participate. They have different needs and those needs are not being met.
I agree that all children should have some attention paid to their needs in terms of taking a devout part in the Mass but this does not necessarily have to be tied to serving.
(BTW - The thing about serving on Sunday and then supporting abortion rights in school can happen just as much with girls.)
Your first comment stressed "injustice" and negative attitudes towards girls. I would put in a plea to people not to assume that this is always the issue when we try to reach out to the lost boys and men in our Catholic communities.
It's interesting that you have such a high drop out rate among the boys in your parish as opposed to girls. It may be a cultural thing, but can it be that American boys are used to socializing with girls and vice versa at a younger age?
Perhaps, in your case, a solution might be (if you have enough masses to go around per week) would be to have masses that boys serve - and masses that girls serve. You could do it somewhat discretely, in that some of the masses would still be mixed i.e. if a family has children of both sexes...have those kids serve together. Or mixed groups where the kids are past the "danger age" that you know get along well. And maybe just arrange it so that boys you think are at risk of dropping out serve mass together without the girls.
You don't even have to announce that you're doing it!! Just subtly re-arrange the schedules if you can do it without calling attention to it! It's kind of seldom you get all the servers together anyway, other than perhaps an annual "thank you for serving mass" party.
That would perhaps kill two birds with one stone? I.E. not denying the girls...but still keeping the involvement of boys who are in the "no girls allowed" zone of their social development.
Do your churches have sports leagues where the kids play teams from other churches? This might be a natural way to get the boys where they have something exclusively of their own. I wouldn't think too many girls play rugby, for instance. Then it would be natural for Fr. to occasionally give the boys that vocational talk, etc.
Chances are other churches in your area are having a similar problem. If there are enough Catholic churches, the teams could play each other? If not, I bet the Anglicans and other denominations may be having similar issues with their youth.
The girls could have their own sports teams. When I was a youngster, CYO (Catholic Youth Organization) was pretty big -- When the kids are in their teens it would be a nice thing if the churches in your area could put on dances and mixers - and movie nights and "let's do something nice for the community" events. If we want good Catholic marriages, they might as well meet each other in a supervised setting! Have the kids the other kids look up to help set it up.
This way, "the boys" could have something their own. Ditto the girls, and when they want to mix, they can.
Anyway, just some thoughts....
Just noticed there was still a debate about girl altar servers. As mother of 8 girls i would cringe to see them serve! For a start we all know that girls are 'better' so there go the boys! Since my girls are like super-models i really think i'd know where all male & female eyes would be..& it wouldn't be the Tabernacle. Since i don't want my girls to be Priests why would i want them on the Altar?
i can't understand parents wanting girls to serve..i really can't..
Karen - it is funny, really, we actually have very a similar approach. I am at the moment trying subtly to encourage more boys at the 10.30am Mass and girls at the 9am. It strikes me that there is a big cultural difference between here and San Diego. Boys and girls do mix but generally our children lag far behind American children in social skills. Dances etc. abound but they tend to be "discos" where the cattle market ethos prevails from the age of 10 with girls dressing up in short skirts, make-up etc. and boys being boorish. for us, the best social setting for young people to mix is at Catholic Youth events which are well run.
BTW - we do have girls' rugby here. Political correctness knows no bounds in England!
I'm surprised your parish girls are wearing makeup at 10. Most parents around here frown on that until daughter is 12 or 13...and then if they try to put on too much they get yelled at! Our girls can play some pretty rough sports too, but they don't, as a rule, play them on a mixed team.
I'm surprised Mrs. Parke doesn't remember occasionally staring at a cute guy at mass when she was young? And apparently, "Fr. What a waste" is unknown in the British Isles....I guess all the good looking ones are the Irish and Italian ones that got sent over to America to supplement our native born. Cuts both ways. I marvel that we American women and girls manage to concentrate. Or is that the real reason the Tridentine priest doesn't face the people most of the time? So us hapless females can concentrate on the Lord, rather than gaze upon Fr. Angelface? At any rate, I hardly think "supermodel" girls would necessarily be wearing supermodel clothes when serving mass. [Can you say "Strawman?"] Unusual for boys to be "on the altar" - our kids serve "in the sanctuary."
=8^D
Different strokes. Is it okay for young ladies to be lectors, I wonder, or later assist with Communion when they get older? Or is that considered "on the altar" too? What happens if one wants to be a lector at a Novus Ordo Mass? Congrats at raising 10 kids, though. Take a bow.
If I write essays...doesn't mean I'm going to become an essayist...any more than occasionally putting an extra quart of oil in the car makes me think I have a future in auto mechanics. The ability to know where to put the oil in helps keep the engine maintained though. Kind of like serving mass naturally leads you to notice every little detail. At minimum, they don't grow up thinking the water used at the lavabo is "holy water" as more than one grown woman I've met thought! [And one man, who also never served mass. Shocking, but true.]
Well Karen..how do i follow that? Yes on the altar..i suppose it's a kind of inaccurate 'slang' but i'm sure you know i meant the sanctuary, although they're not called 'sanctuary servers '. i don't think i mentioned make-up but long flowing hair, gorgeous looks (all from their mom of course!)..re the boys like the Priest we generally only see their backs as Mass is always celebrated this way. We don't have extra-ordinary ministers of the Eucharist. Praise God.
Women are permitted to read & after reading move off the sanctuary to the pew. They often bring up the gifts too. Are we second class citizens? No way! The Priests (& i noticed this with Fr Finigan) have an enormous respect for women, particularly mothers.
How would Our Blessed Lady behave? Methinks she would happily know her role as different from the men in her life. She although Mother Of God (St Cyril today's Feast defended this title)humbled herself before Joseph & her Son.
Strangely God is never outdone in generosity. In His immense charity he gave me 2 sons as well as my 8 daughters. My youngest son has served daily Mass since he was 6. this has been his choice & he is far advanced spiritually than me.He is 8 now.i love it that he is welcomed in the sacristy & finds it comfortable. i love the male environment.
What do girls do when dressing..do they wear cassocks & cottas? & are they supervised by women?
i mean i couldn't send my 8 daughters into the sacristy at The Oratory!It's unthinkable 7 totally imprudent.
i fear we may have to agree to disagree on this one as i will always go with a Male Priesthood served by males.
God bless
Ha-Ha!!! Now *I* don't know where to start and that's saying something. Our kids, as is typical of the southwest, catch a break in that their albs are fairly comfortable and non-fussy. An alb with a hood. One snap button, plus cincture. Easy maintenance, and still look nice in the sanctuary. Keep in mind the average temp in San Diego is about 72F. year round.
(I hope these links work or the
rest of this won't make sense.)
Here's some of the group after Francis's 2nd mass served back in Feb. He's on the left, Fr. "don't even think of calling me Msgr. I work for a living" Shipley is next to him, I'm behind and Teresa, Francis's older sister, is on the far right. I forget who said what to whom, but we could hear the Holy Spirit laughing too. Incidently, Teresa's finished a nine year run serving virtually every Sunday, save about 4 or 5 weeks of the year...except when she was sick in the hospital for almost two months, with some aliment that never was pinpointed. Her mom's a doctor. Despite this she managed to maintain a 4.0 (A) average. She just graduated high school with 4 APs at A grade (that's roughly the equivalent of your A levels at A grade) in calculus, French, History and English. One of those kids that does well on both math/humanities tracks. 1/2 paid scholarship to college for 4 years, and trust me, those are hard to come by for those whose parents have an upper middle class income. I think she's pretty drop-dead good looking too, but then I've known her since she was 7. But then all the kids out here are "above average" in the looks department. :-D (Apologies to Garrison Keeler.) Trust me we have not had to fend any young swains from the sacristy door, nor did we have to clean up drool from the pews. The two boys Teresa served with were like cousins to her, them being slightly older. Tim by 1 year, and Jim by 3. Both "hotties" in their own right. And no, they didn't have to beat the girls off with a stick either!
Fr. Shipley taught at University of San Diego from 1957 to just a few years ago...he will be 79 this October. Philosophy, ethics, etc. A true prince of the Church, and down to earth too. I've assisted him at mass for 31 years myself in one way or another.
As for keeping the kids "supervised" I have to laugh. We don't have an overly large sacristy as it is. The priests have two closets, and the kids have one. Dressing isn't a problem, as our kids do not strip down buck nekkid to put on their albs. [Is England that different that you'd have to fret?]
If one kid was showing signs of getting the
least little bit out of hand,
trust me, they'd get pounded one.
(Our cantor, Teresa "the Enforcer", Francis and two others of our crew, Pam (whose sons served with Teresa, for 8 years each, and Cito.)
As things stand, I think we can look forward to more years of service. Our lady has BILLIONS of children. She does not send the girls away, especially when there is no theological reason they aren't as good as their brothers to hand the wine to father, especially given their older sisters are lectors. Mary
opens her arms to all who serve Him. Before whom we all humble ourselves for the
gift of His sacrifice. We are all soldiers of Christ who stand before the tabernacle. And if girls are willing to stand up for the faith in public, when the boys aren't (or vice versa) it would come as a slap in the face to tell them "sorry, dearie, you don't have the right anatomy...but let that boy over there who did NOT stand up for me, be more welcome to serve mass than you." Doesn't work.
Personally, as a woman, I find OTHER women more of an obstacle to getting things done than I have men. At any rate, we out here on the west coast are not automatically pigeon-holed as to what our intrinsic capabilities may or may not be. Makes my life a lot easier. I think Father's job is secure. Personally, I wouldn't want to work every Sunday and Holy Day. But that's me. Someday I must have a chat with St. Therese of Lisieux about that. Lord knows, she was musing "above" her station.
Personally, I do what I can in my part of the vineyard. I try and give all the grapes equal attention.
Great post Karen. i'm afraid though i just don't get it! It really has nothing to do with girls being sub-servient. It's just that we have different roles. Men can't give birth to babies..on one occasion my husband said to me it must be nice to carry a baby. How right he is. We women have an elevated role in being able to give birth to our children. Fr Tim was talking about the status of mothers & how right he was.
Men however can be called to be Priests, wedded to the one Holy Catholic Church. Boys have always served with one attempt to foster vocations to the Priesthood. i think the girls should identify with Our Lady & their mothers, to become strong Catholic Mothers or consecrated women.
i think their presence on the sanctuary confuses things & blurs the distinction between the separate but equal roles of women.
i think it's commendable to give years of service to the Lord, but we don't need to do 'Churchy' things to do that. For example the poor extraordinary ministers who probably think it's a holy thing to distribute Holy Communion. Sadly this is what we have Priests for...
It is issues such as these that have not seen an increase in numbers at Mass but rather the reverse. Fortunately Pope Benedict V1 is well aware of particularly the youngs call for a traditional Mass, & will shortly extend the celebration of the Tridentine Mass. i'm not an ultr-trad, just a mother wishing to attend Mass with its beauty & clear delineation of the roles of men & women. Neither one more important than the other just different.
We need to avoid the laity taking over Priestly roles & vice versa.
I'm still not sure why you would think there is "confusion" of roles.
No one "confuses" the Queen with a lady in waiting. No one "confuses" Horatio for Hamlet. Unless one is willfully ignorant, no one would "confuse" a server/lector/EM from the priest. If you allow for women to be lectors, or ushers (porters) -- given that the minor orders have been abolished (and indeed all the layMEN who functioned as porter/acolyte for years weren't as a rule formally instituted in minor orders. So what you are left with is an inculcation of a cultural bias against women in those roles ...given that ALL the laity are "equal." Once you allow that women can be lectors, then you really can't logically deny their daughters. You may have practical concerns i.e. boys at certain ages don't all like to be around girls, but it's easy to work around should that need arise.
As for EMs...well...I suppose it's safe to say you haven't been one, but I think you're projecting wrongly what it's actually like to serve in that capacity. Primarily it is a humbling experience in that you are there to assist when there aren't enough priests to distribute Communion to the people. There is a special grace the EM receives, because he/she sees something the average person in the pews doesn't see. They see a most remarkable thing: the very expressions of the faces of all who receive the Lord are noticeably similar. It's astonishing. No matter the age, the social class, the color, the nationality, the condition in life....it makes you humble and proud to be a Catholic...all approach the Lord with a remarkable similarity. There is a VERY narrow range of expression and composure. NO EM suddenly feels he/she could simply switch over and consecrate the Eucharist. It's a false assumption. There is a huge chasm between who a priest is and what a priest does and who a layman/woman is and what they do. "Rules" are fine when they make sense...but arbitrary rules aren't, especially when they can do damage.
There was one occasion (and only one, thank goodness) where there was a foul up in the mass coverage.
Fr. had had an operation, and for about 8 weeks we had other priests from outside the parish cover our mass. Except once. The priest in question had gotten the dates of his coverage mixed up and failed to show for mass. No one in the congregation knew which priest was supposed to cover for that mass. We waited 20 minutes, and at that point since I was the EM there at mass, I led a Communion service. I wasn't flustered (having long ago prepared myself for such an eventuality having learned from the scouts "be prepared.") Just before we realized this would have to be done we solicited from the congregants if they knew the mass times for other nearby masses and we urged people to go if they could (keep in mind ours is the Sunday 5:15 mass...so few options were left, and a good 1/2 of the congregation are tourists.) IT went smoothly as mother church of course provided a service to follow mit rubrics. The pastor was very glad when he found out that I was able to cover the situation as best I could. On that occasion I was under NO delusions as to what my role was. It was to make the best out of what would have been chaos.
At any rate, as a woman, one of my favorite stories in the gospels is the Martha/Mary episode in Luke. Martha is twittering about the house fussing around...and she wants Jesus to yell at Mary to fuss around too, while Mary was learning from Jesus. Jesus basically told Martha to back off because "Mary has chosen the better part and it shall not be denied her." I just can't for the life of me imagine Jesus shooing a female altar server away, and that's what it comes down to for me. And of course the blessed Mother can be a role model too. It's called "multi-tasking." And as a mom of 10, I'm sure you know all about that! God Bless.
oh but you're wrong Karen! i have been an extraordinary minister..mainly when i was Head of RE teaching 11-18 year olds & with 1000 pupils it would have taken Fr a long time to distribute Holy Communion so i assisted. i also was trained in our local Parish. Let me tell you this it made me feel enormously uncomfortable & by the grace of God i refused to do it. This was all about 18 years ago & i've never regretted my decision.
The parish i describe would often have these strange services whilst the Priest was in the presbytery watching TV.
The story you tell when the Priest didn't show up...well to have a woman do a service..oh dear!As you say there was another Mass scheduled anyway.
i know you are very well meaning..
Re multi-tasking..well the Priests do that don't they?
i'm deinitely the sister sitting at Our Lord's feet. When Fr Tim visited i hung on his every word & left the refreshments to others! But that's what i do when any Priest visits & we have a fair few & also my Miles Jesu brothers. They are all males & i love discussion with them..most know where to go to help themselves to food!
God bless
Hi Jackie---
It's okay if you found being an EM wasn't for you...I can respect that. Some people don't want that responsibility or feel comfortable doing it.
We are down to a lot of one priest parishes with "supply" helping out, and we are fortunate to have a number of retired priests in the area to assist on Sundays.
I fear you somewhat misunderstood my post re: the coverage for the the Mass the one time we weren't covered. Again, I assist at the LAST SUNDAY MASS of the day. So in our parish there weren't other options other than to go to another church. Keep in mind that we started late (having given the priest a good extra twenty minutes beyond when Mass should have started at 5:15) -- at that time of day on Sunday, there were VERY few options that people were certain about, and given the time of day, the nearest in a university chapel some miles away, and the other "downtown" -- other nearby parishes started about 5ish, that given people wouldn't even have been in time for the consecration, much less the offeratory except for the two hard-to-get-to-if-you-don't-
know-where-you're=going Masses. Then add to that a good 1/2 of the church on any given Sunday is likely to be visitors...who wouldn't have a clue where those other Masses were. So, like I said some left to hotfoot it up to the university, and the rest stayed. So you've basically got to do something for them. So we did. According to the official norm used if occasion should arise for the need to do the liturgy of the word + communion. Fortunately, there WERE plenty of Hosts without having to break many, otherwise that would have been trouble! Don't sweat it, I didn't ask the pastor for the stipend! ;-D [We did also urge people to go to Mass during the week if the could.]
[And thanks to Fr. Tim for being so patient on this thread. I expect he finds it useful to see how two modern women take opposite views of this.]
[Jackie, did you get the pic of the Jacaranda I sent you?]
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