For a church long perceived as bastion of male privilege, it's striking that these new lay professional roles are held disproportionately by women. As of 2005, roughly 80 percent of lay ecclesial ministers in the United States were women.I imagine the numbers would be roughly similar in England.
One of the key problems in my opinion is that of the promotion of lay ministry as an answer to all our problems. To quote Christifideles Laici,
In the same Synod Assembly, however, a critical judgment was voiced along with these positive elements, about a too-indiscriminate use of the word "ministry", the confusion and the equating of the common priesthood and the ministerial priesthood, the lack of observance of ecclesiastical laws and norms, the arbitrary interpretation of the concept of "supply", the tendency towards a "clericalization" of the lay faithful and the risk of creating, in reality, an ecclesial structure of parallel service to that founded on the Sacrament of Orders. (n.23)and further on,
[...] it is necessary that in acknowledging and in conferring various ministries, offices and roles on the lay faithful, the Pastors exercise the maximum care to institute them on the basis of Baptism in which these tasks are rooted. It is also necessary that Pastors guard against a facile yet abusive recourse to a presumed "situation of emergency" or to "supply by necessity", where objectively this does not exist or where alternative possibilities could exist through better pastoral planning. (ibid)Some of my more cynical brethren among the clergy will say at this point that this is a return to the supposed situation of the past where the laity were supposed to "pray, pay and obey". In fact, Christifideles Laici offers a genuine understanding of the lay apostolate (as distinct from lay ministry) which calls to mind that much neglected document of Vatican II, Apostolicam Actuositatem (Decree on the Lay Apostolate)
The various ministries, offices and roles that the lay faithful can legitimately fulfill in the liturgy, in the transmission of the faith, and in the pastoral structure of the Church, ought to be exercised in conformity to their specific lay vocation, which is different from that of the sacred ministry. In this regard the Exhortation Evangelii Nuntiandi, that had such a great part in stimulating the varied collaboration of the lay faithful in the Church's life and mission of spreading the gospel, recalls that "their own field of evangelizing activity is the vast and complicated world of politics, society and economics, as well as the world of culture, of the sciences and the arts, of international life, of the mass media. It also includes other realities which are open to evangelization, such as human love, the family, the education of children and adolescents, professional work, and suffering. The more Gospel-inspired lay people there are engaged in these realities, clearly involved in them, competent to promote them and conscious that they must exercise to the full their Christian powers which are often repressed and buried, the more these realities will be at the service of the Kingdom of God and therefore at the service of salvation in Jesus Christ, without in any way losing or sacrificing their human content but rather pointing to a transcendent dimension which is often disregarded" (ibid)When somebody does a reading at Mass or acts as an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, they are doing something that a priest can do. One of my parishioners (now deceased) arranged for a group of fellow-employees at the Bank where she worked, to say the Rosary at the tea break. That is not something I can arrange, it is a specifically lay apostolate. The same goes for a father teaching his children to behave decently, a post office worker gaining such respect among his younger colleagues that they refrain from swearing when he is around. Yes, that actually happened - in Peckham of all places. It was a West Indian man whom his young co-workers held in high esteem.
While we promote lay ministry instead of genuine lay apostolate, we will probably continue the feminisation of the Church. The lay apostolate on the other hand, will help to involve people of both sexes with many different gifts to bring to the evangelisation of our culture - including men willing to engage in a rearguard action in the culture war that we have largely lost in modern Britain.
33 comments:
Language is an important element in the kit-bag of those seeking a 're-formation' in the Church, it should be noted that the widespread use of 'ministry' and the creation of new 'charisms' of ministry was a significent development in Anglicanism in England as the process leading towards the ordination of women went forward. Without suggesting that the same pattern would happen in the Roman Catholic Church it is possible that a feminisation of the RC Church should take a form, long term, that made ministerial priesthood marginal to the process of government in the church and in the increasing absence of men in local churches enabled the feminine agenda to be the only available option.
I try to square this reality of the "lay ecclesial ministry" with the traditional doctrine of the Church (recently and emphatically reaffirmed by Pope Benedict just a couple of days ago, in his Letter to Chinese Catholics: "In the Church – the People of God – only the sacred ministers, duly ordained after sufficient instruction and formation, may exercise the office of 'teaching, sanctifying and governing'. The lay faithful may, with a canonical mission from the Bishop, perform an ancillary ecclesial ministry of handing on the faith") -- but it is impossible to do so. The crisis deepens with this assumption, by the laity, of competences which do not belong, essentially, to laymen and laywomen.
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By the way, happy birthday, Father Finigan! (Belated, yet sincere!)
While it is true that the priest can do the readings, when a lay person does the readings well, it is a witness to the congregation that not only the priest believes. The lector communicates not only the text, but his own faith. Personally, I think this is truly edifying in the strict sense of the word.
Beyond that, in our parish we have had so many foreign priests as assistants, esp from India and Poland, that I have often reflected approaching the lectern that the readings I do will be the only point in the entire Mass when the congregation will hear clear, comprehensible, familiar English. In other words, it is practically a work of mercy.
Emphatically though, we need instruction and examples *from other laymen* about how to go about exercising an apostolate in the world as you suggest. This is where the ecclesial movements that both Pope John Paul and Pope Benedict have been promoting come in. Pentecost typically has been the day chosen for manifestations of this papal support, which suggests that such apostolates find their grounding in Confirmation. For that reason, I think we will see the intended fruits of Vatican II when solid priests undertake the spiritual direction and the thoroughgoing theological instruction of charismatics- who have experienced the ex opere operantis possibilities of Confirmation. They are the ones with fire in their bellies. Properly channeled, their zeal would lead to all kinds of fruitful initiatives. This applies to Cursillistas as well. Till now, though, priestly support and understanding have been in short supply- at least in my part of the world. In fact, I have to say that the overwhelming priestly concern has been to keep things within normal bounds, which IMHO effectively has meant suppressing the Holy Spirit. Keeping things in normal bounds and converting England (or Chicago) are antithetical concepts.
I share your concerns. I think that lay evangelization and faith formation should be the higher priority for both male and female laity. That is also closer to the Early Church's priorities when the ministry was in even shorter supply (and in threat of martyrdom!) than it is today. That said, I recognize the crunch in ministry as we all pray for vocations. One thing that I think people need to clarify in their minds when having this dialogue, though, is the assumption that more females brings more feminization. I actually think that is not true, because I think even devout female laity are subject to being less focused on true feminine priorities (support of the family in the Catholic church structure) and more "feminist ideologue" driven. There's a big difference. Even the most well meaning of Catholic women volunteers are somewhat brainwashed by the prevailing societal pressures to view lay ministry in "control" and "advancement" and "equality" terms. I'd much rather see female laity emphasis on evangelization and faith formation because that is where the true health of the flock resides, in helping spread the word and strengthen the esteem and support of the traditional family and their faith. Well formed Catholic female laity who evangelize could do so much to help those who are struggling with faith and family. The Church needs to be restored to family-inity and sacred-inity rather than masculinity or femininity.
Pay pray and obey
I've never understood why people disparage that set of rules for the role of the laity. Taken seriously it gives everyone plenty to do and is perfectly appropriate for people whose proper place is the world, not the sanctuary.
Fabulous report. i'm just winding up my discussion re male altar servers on your blog. i belong to a lay Institute Miles Jesu & their are several others. We must avoid the blurring o the roles of men & women. Miles Jesu has men's communities & womens..not mixed.
The male Priesthood is a wonderful gift to the Church as are the male lay roles.i still cannot see why women/girls want to wear cassocks/cottas & serve. i feel reading is one role permissable as long as the readers leave the sanctuary afterwards.
Extraordinary ministers are to my mind unecessay..it doesn't matter how long it takes to distribute Holy Communion. Why do we want to receive from a lay person? i've been at Masses when the Priest has sat in front of the altar when about 4 women rushed out to distribute Holy Communion. sickening!
i resist the feminisation of the Church at every point..& i have 8 daughters! We women are very comfortable with our position in the Church. We eel the Church holds us in high esteem, without having to take on the roles of men.
Good post.
Okay, you're testing us to see who's going to read the sources you quoted, right?
What do I win for noticing "fuzzy math" - ill applied statistics and apples to oranges comparisons, and lack of definitions?
That 80% business struck me as all out of whack on first reading your blog. Didn't square...I grabbed a copy of our newly minted parish director and looked at all the "group" photos we had. From your blog I had initially assumed you were talking about lay people who exercise functions in particular with the context of a sacramental liturgical situation. I counted up male/female heads (and this Sunday, I can go back and look at the official on our sacristy bulletin board for the current roster) -- but we showed about an even split! In ALL ministries open to laypersons EM/Lector/Server.
So then I thought: h'mmm....are both the John Allen article you cited and the vatican document you cited talking about the same categories of ministry in the sense that your post concentrates on? And by my reading of the Allen article, he is talking about an entirely different KIND of ministry. I had frankly never heard the term "lay ecclesial ministry" and figured that was the first place to go -- here is the quote of the definition as used by Allen:
"Cultures invent new words when they've got new things to name, and so it is with the American church, which has recently contributed a new bit of taxonomy to Catholic conversation: "lay ecclesial ministry." The term refers to a new class of lay professionals performing tasks that were once the near-exclusive province of priests, such as parish administration, bereavement counseling and sick calls, sacramental preparation, liturgical planning, catechesis, faith formation, and a host of other roles. [ding-ding-ding--"preparation"" counseling" etc...but not within the framework of the actual sacrament itself...sometimes a "sick call" but really, if there's one priest, and he's got 20 sick people to see, unfortunately, he might not get around to all of them every week, and unfortunately, he might have to delegate a bit to at least have someone bring Communion.] Today's reality is that, save for Mass and the other sacraments, most people's experience of pastoral ministry in the Catholic church is increasingly with a lay person rather than a priest."
Bingo. The key lies in the word "PROFESSIONAL." You two guys are talking about two different kinds of ministry. EM/Lector/Acolyte over here certainly aren't PROFESSIONAL ministries in the sense that they are full time jobs and one gets paid for them.....nor, from the list cited do these "lay ecclesial ministries" take place in the context of a sacramental rite.
The reason, as the author buries far down in his text is that the pay scale is FAR from lucrative. No man wants to work on poverty level wages to support a family. Indeed if a man is interested by those "touchy feely family oriented things" the author muses if it is not in fact why those men so interested....go into the priesthood! [I think we have a "duh news" alert here.]
I went back and read your quotes from the Vatican document, and it seemed quite clear to me the parts you quoted referenced ministries in the context of a sacramental liturgy.
For WELL before Vatican II legions of women and nun were involved in instructing children in the faith, either in the parochial schools (sister worked for stamp money) and CCD classes (mom worked gratis.)
Well, now mom's got a Ph.D in psychology and all those "touchy feely" jobs women gravity towards are occupied by women with qualifications. Except now she gets paid more than pin money for it. Not as well as a male dominatied field, but beats sewing in a 3rd world factory. Sister's done those specialized courses in "bereavement counseling." Isn't it sort or logical that "professional mom" and "sister with a degree" are now filling a need since Father (and Deacons) by necessity filling the sacramental jobs that only they can do? Last I looked the priests I know in the seminary studied things like "moral theology","Hermaneutics" etc.
Isn't there something re: the directives for priests in the Canon Law that even states something more or less along the lines of "Father, if you've got a really psychologically damaged individual here...feel free to refer them to a pro for further help...(children don't try to saw the lady in half by yourself.)"
In fact the article acknowledges that for you to really start to see EVEN ratios of men and women in these jobs, it's likely you're going to have to pay them a respectable "living wage" the church is always whinging and preaching about.
These "women professionals" actually take the burden off the priest so he can concentrate on those things ONLY a priest can do. It was a good idea to use WOMEN in WWII America to fly the planes over to where they needed to get to, so the men could be freed from that task so they could be free to do the important bombing runs the women weren't used to do. why have a guy back at company headquarters type of the supplies requests when he could grab a gun for the front line where he was better needed?
You're also fighting plain old human nature as far as which sex is more religious than another. The Allen article states [buried way deep] -
"Yet below the top levels, the sociological pattern in Christianity has long been a predominance of women, both among church workers and church-goers. Sociologists Rodney Stark and Alan Miller have studied the religious gender gap, concluding that women are more religious than men by virtually every measure in virtually every culture. While the gender gap is smaller in highly traditional societies in which high levels of religious faith and practice are the norm for both sexes, nevertheless there's still a noticeable tendency for women to be more involved than men."
And far from people whining about Vatican II and the "feminization" of things --
Allen also cited this:
"and Leon J. Podles' The Church Impotent: The Feminization of Christianity (Spence, 1999), illustrate the point. Murrow is a Presbyterian and Podles a Catholic, but both have noticed something similar about their respective denominations.
As Podles put it succinctly, "Women go to church, men go to football games."
Podles believes that Western Christianity has been feminizing itself for the better part of 1,000 years, beginning with medieval imagery about the church as the "Bride of Christ," which he associates with St. Bernard of Clairvaux and exhortations to "fall in love" with Jesus. While that kind of imagery has a powerful impact on women, Podles wrote, it's off-putting for men. Podles argued that Christian men have sublimated their religious instincts into sports, soldiering, fraternal organizations, and even fascism. When they do engage in religious activity, he wrote, it's more likely to be in a more masculine para-church organization such as the Knights of Columbus (note the martial imagery) or Promise-Keepers."
Bottom line: -- yes outside the sacraments you may find a bias towards women...you want to change that? Start paying more for the jobs women do so it's not a pink collar ghetto. But you still may be inclined to feel that perhaps it might be best to channel a lot of those men to the priesthood...where they are sorely needed.
Forgive me for writing under the veil of anonymity but you have raised a crucial, if delicate, subject and drawn an essential distinction between ministry and apostolate. Many who support lay ministry are resentful of the lay apostolate because they think it puts the laity in their place. It does not, of course, but fulfills the lay vocation by involving them in bringing the good news to the world. A cynical friend of mine said that one of the worst motivations of lay ministry is to get hold of the keys to the safe and the tabernacle because they are symbols of power. We know the consequencies. But there is a more worrying dimension to an over-emphasis on lay participation and that concerns vocations. It is not only the dioceses that encourages lay ministry but also the religious orders. If people are encouraged to participate fully in the work of both, whether in diocesan and parish administration or as co-workers with the Orders, the distinctiveness of vocations to the priesthood and the religious life will inevitably be weakened. This is especially true of the Orders. Take the Jesuits, for instance. They are increasingly insistent on encouraging lay co-operation to a high level in all aspects of their apostolate and this creates an impression that you can be a Jesuit without the need to undertake the long, intensive and rigorous training. Their numbers are decreasing fast and this emphasis has, I believe, a contributory part to play in their lay policies; but it will decrease faster still if more work is taken on by lay co-workers who don't have to accept the hard discipline of the Order. By extension the same pattern is developing in the diocesan setting. When lay ministry works on a complementary basis it's fine, when it turns into power games it becomes a disaster and leads only to strife. It is often forgotten that priests come from the laity and the calibre of the laity is reflected in the standard of candidates. But if more responsibility is vested in the laity, especially in married men and women, the calibre will be weakened. Few seem willing to acknowledge the effect this development is having on vocations yet it forms, in my opinion, a contributory factor to the crisis. A greater emphasis on the lay apostolate would, if successful, help to restore balance. Without it dislocation is bound to get worse and a new crisis, this time of identity, will emerge. I hope I am not a clericalist but I can foresee serious problems ahead if the distinction between lay ministry and apostolate is not addressed. Thanks for raising it.
A lot of it revolves around an abject fear of the accusation of Patriarchy and possessing an anti-feminist agenda - suppressing women.
Our seminary replaced the year long 'pastoral placement' for diaconate with a minimal parish placement [sunday mass and an RCIA evening] and a course known as 'Pastoral Ministry' - we were led to presume before it was actuated that this would be an intensive course in partoral training aimed at benefitting a newly ordained priest; training in being a good counsellor/confessor, training in visiting the sick and housebound; possibly going to hospices/prisons/mental institutions and having a short-term placement in a chaplaincy ? Maybe some youth activities or training in catechesis or sacramental preparation ?
We were wrong on all accounts !
Pastoral Ministry involved the newly ordained deacons 'studying' with professional middle class middle aged women who had become 'professional laity' in their parishes [i.e. lector, extraordinary communion ministers, lay preachers, senior catechists , RCIA co-ordinators, and presiders of Eucharistic services when the priest was on holiday].
What was the main thrust of the course?
Well, female empowerment was the main argot, but the course mainly involved 'group sharing' psychosynthesis, and theoretical pastoral issues [most of this for some reason revolved around a lot of collective guilt about caring for AIDS victims]. They would have guest speakers - a reformed prisoner or drug addict or child abuser or a battered wife - a few nuns who ran missions in the third world gave talks about how they should be priests and be able to give out the pill and morning-after pill ; and there were loads of note taking and group hugs and tears and laughter and they all felt very proud of themselves when they hugged their first gay man with hiv; and they all got opportunities to give a vast array of sermons about these things at the seminary masses ; but did they actually do any pastoral ministry ?
Visit prisons, hospitals, the housebound ?
No. It was all nice Psycho-theory which made them feel guilty they weren't disabled lesbians with terminal cancer, but empowered in the psychometric self-discovery the enneagram and Myers briggs gave them, and they'd been taught to love themselves so that they could spread their love throughout the community.
Needless to say when these deacons were ordained some were hit with a brickbat dose of reality ! no amount of theory was going to help them console their first grieving widow, or help them deal with the death of a child, or endure the terrible depressing ambiance of a prison [a friend still has nightmares about the 26 locks that closed behind him every time he visited] or how to counsel a battered wife or an adulterous husband or a gay teen...or how to cope with the daily life within a parish - its long periods of monotony followed by critical nights holding vigil beside a dying parishioner or dealing with a violent schizophrenic on the roof of the multi-storey, or sheltering a wife and her children from an abusive husband... and the constant phonecalls from the anxious, the lonely, those who feel unloved.
Some newly ordained priests managed to survive despite the poor training, some couldn't cope with parish life so became 'pastoral experts' and spent all their hours travelling the country training others in 'pastoral ministry' or 'care for the terminally ill'. Others went on to become 'professional clerics' spending all their time in training or further study and ultimately diocesan administration; but whatever they did they ensured they would see little of ordinary parish life again. One seminarian colleague of mine became so enraptured in helping the poor of south africa and making a difference out there. He now spends most of his time on 'awareness missions' in the US where he talks about his time in south africa and the people's hardship with poverty and hiv and the post-mandela era. That's what 'pastoral Ministry' does for you.
As for the women on the course ? Did they return to their parishes to revolutionise their pastoral agenda for their respective dioceses ?
No. They decided that they would be better off in an academic and administrative position . so as soon as the pastoral ministry course ended almost all of them applied to complete theology degrees and subsequently masters in some form of abstract theology - The majority are now trainers and academic experts in either liturgy or pastoral training or feminist theology or RCIA or catechesis - they don't do any of these things themselves ; they train/teach others.
Consequently, as the laity previously went on pilgrimages or retreats, they now go on courses run by these 'non-parish' clergy or 'professional female laity' to spread the message throughout the parishes that 'this is how your parish should be run!'
People with very little pastoral, catechetical or liturgical experience on the ground are the ones who are now the 'academic intellectual experts' on the issues and are the most vocal and influential in the church today [Bishops are very wary of not listening to them - and at the first opportunity they will employ one of these experts to run some aspect of diocesan administration to prevent the accusation of sexism or clericalism]
One memory seems to exemplify the whole issue:
About twenty years ago our diocese had an 'Assembly' for renewal and spiritual liberation in preparation for the age of evangelisation. One of the main speakers was a 'professional lay woman' who had a list of qualifications and certificates as long as your arm. An RE teacher from a local catholic school asked he about the difficulties in teaching confirmation preparation; part of her response was :
'Well I wouldn't even consider mentioning the Holy Spirit to children so young in a confirmation class'!!!???
It seemed to sum everything up.
It's not all bad news... I see that the New Zealand Bishops have made it clear to Sister Joan Chittister that her visit to NZ next week is unwelcome.
The reason being her liking for teaching heterodoxy and leading the faithful astray thereby.
Where does any lay person with a family and job and stuff get the time or energy to get so involved in 'lay ministry' that they see themselves as so 'indispensable'? I don't know about anyone else, but I'm trying to finish a research degree, hold down a couple of jobs, make ends meet, ensure I don't neglect my friends or family, keep a something-approaching-decent prayer life going, stop myself from messing up big-time, and then I help out with the student parish in my city (and I don't devote enough to that as I should). Sleep deprivation is a way of life!
What happened to the idea of clerics bringing God to the Church and the laity bringing God to the rest of the world? Maybe I understood that bit wrong :)
Fr. Tim: will the rain ever stop?!
I think it also has much to do with the feminization of the sanctuary, as well.
When churches are emasculated to the point that even potpourri takes the place of incense - figuratively speaking - I can't imagine why men don't want to be in church.
Amen, Father! Here in New York, there is an overabundance of those involved in "ministry." Our diocese has now instituted a "lay ministry program" which trains "lay ministers" to serve in various roles in the Church. It seems to me that we are creating a super laity...those who are more important than the ordinary pew sitter through some special form of training, education, etc.
It's all very confusing.
This is a massive subject and you could say our entire culture has become feminised: education, the media's agenda, health and lifestyle, politics. At the root of it, we have to ask ourselves: what IS it that Satan least wants ? A: Our priests standing tall in the full power of their ministry. he does not want any of us, in fact, living out our full human dignity as men or women. So, there is this androgenous confusion of men being diminished and of women being "assertive". he is the author of confusion and disorder. I would encourage anyone who wants to, to fast especially once a week for our priests.(Friday seems a good day to pick - start from Thursday evening and finish on Friday evening - so if you want to socialize in the evening, you still can) I fear if we had all done this sooner, we might not be in the situation we are today. Women, fast for your priest if you want to be valued in the Catholic church. Now, that`s what I call a lay ministry.
OK, more serious point. The 'Feminisation' of the Church is a mere reflection of what is going on all around us (in the west anyway).
My son is now 14. But when he started at Infant school he had not one male teacher. And he was coming from a background of full time nursery school where there was also an absense of men.
In fact, he did not encounter a male figure of authority (other than me, natch!) until he entered his Secondary school (Junior High for all our American readers!). He had a real hard time that first year of secondary school in coming to terms with dealing with male teaches. He just could not get on with them.
I think this issue of lack of males in authority in schools, social services, youth justice (all 'feminised' - social work is near 80% a female profession now)is the key to some of societies ills. Delinquent black youth with no fathers, only mothers, and 'bitches'.They look down on (actually, probably 'blank') females in authority.
And what goes with feminisation is, actually a real hatred toward men. Men, Priests, are so often dismissed out of hand by some female parishioners of my aquaintance.O Dear, back to Sister Joan!
post script:
It's ironic that William raised a point that reminded of the ultimate consequences for my old seminary.
because pastoral ministry was drawing in the money it became the main priority - ministry first with the presbyteral ministry being only a minor aspect of it???
Within a decade the whole notion of seminary vanished.
Last Year Joan Chittister was welcomed to the college with open arms on her massive campaign for Women Priests. You can bet your bottom dollar that the people in the front pews of the church where she spread her message of misandry and death were the college-trained professional lay women who sought 'feminine equality under Christ'
All too sad.
I too am too busy to write a lengthy response. Suffice it to say that I do not really appreciate sermons from non priest deacons. Regardless how good they are I want a homily from a fully ordained RC priest. I also do not believe the 80% unless they are counting heads of teachers & all staff. 50/50 would be my guess.
With all due respect to the commentators here, most of you are conflating two separate issues.
#1 Functions performed within the sacramental liturgy, and #2 those auxilliary functions the laity has ALWAYS helped with (yes, even back in those halcyon days when everything was "perfect" without all those "wimmin running around.")
Then AS NOW, the clergy STILL HAVE 100% of the authority. I don't know how it works in your neck of the woods, but Fr. has the power to hire and fire. And if ANYONE paid or not is NOT toeing the party line as regards to orthodox teaching of the church the pastor (or Parish Priest as you call him) should exercise DUE DILIGENCE and fire that person or not permit them to serve.
If someone is teaching contrary to church doctrine, it is the pastor's duty to say "My way [orthodoxy] or the highway."
In my corner of the woods, my diocese consists of close to one MILLION Catholics. When we add up all priests present in our two counties, which covers 8,852 square miles we have a grand total of 276 priests (of whom 84 are religious order priests) there are 99 parishes, plus 16 missions. Now keep in mind the aging priest population. Unless one is insane one must acknowledge that 75 year old priests shouldn't be expected to carry the full workload of the younger men. YOU DO THE MATH. Father can't be everywhere. And Deacons, God love them, don't do those all important functions of celebrating the Eucharist, confession, etc.
Perhaps in the UK you have solved the whole "space time" continuum thingie, if so, please let us know how you did it.
It should be apparent to the most casual of observers that the laity is going to have to pull their share of the load. Father can't instruct all the children at all levels all the time. He's got his hands full with all the services only he can provide, PLUS all those interesting assignments like "diocesan marriage tribunal" ad infinitum.
Given this, Father still 100% has the power AND THE DUTY to yank anyone from ministry, paid or not, who isn't following and reflecting orthodox teaching.
So if someone is teaching or counseling or whatevering contrary to church teaching and you take note of it, don't sit there and suffer and simper in silence. TELL FATHER. And if HE doesn't exercise the right due diligence, take it up to the bishop.
People don't just walk into jobs without Father's approval. So stop whining and GET TO WORK. Suffering in silence is NOT a virtue if church teaching is being abused or distorted.
Karen - no, I don't think it is "apples and oranges" but a question of the focus on "ecclesial" ministry in the sense of liturgical roles. If your parish has a 50-50 split, that is remarkable and says a lot for the parish.
My main point is that we should stop focussing so exclusively on liturgical ministry for lay people and recover the genuine lay apostolate which will always have different areas in which men or women predominate naturally.
On the question of paying people, at least in England, we need to "do the math". My (medium-sized) parish has an income of about £55,000 per annum. To give a decent salary on which to live in this part of England, that would employ about one and a half people, leaving nothing with which to buy supplies, maintain the buildings etc.
Hi Fr. Tim,
I think what Allen was talking about was definitely NOT the EM/Server/Lector issue...but the paid positions in counseling, teaching etc. Your Vatican document statements for the first part regards "roles" (at least for your 1st quote)
more dealt with the EM/server/lector issues.
We have one pastor (age 62) one retired priest (age 77) "in residence" who pitches in with the Masses and will do confessions - and two supply priests both class of '54 who are pushing 79 who come to help with Sat/Sun masses. (and will hear confessions on request)
We have 1 Deacon, and one paid Nun to help as a "pastoral assistant."
The clerical secretarial work is handled by two women. (also paid)
(And a gardener/maintenence guy also paid for PT work). Staff is paid partly by the parish with the diocese kicking in a bit when/where necessary. (so "poor" parishes still have some paid asssistance.)
Oh, and our pastor is also a head wheel on the diocesan marriage tribunal.
We have about 300 families and single persons. I'd have to do a head count, but I think it works out somewhere @1200 head. Plus we have a lot of visitors every weekend.
The women predominate in the catechism department, (it's probably the same most parishes) - largely 'cuz they've got the time.
But it's been that way since back in the day of Sister Mary Goodfaith and her 10 sisters.
Last Sunday our collection plate was about $5000 bucks or about 2500 pounds. It's better in the summer now, with more tourists here, though we do get some year round.
We also have a parish gift shop. We're open every day until 5...so that's helped too. And we're lucky to be able to leave the church open in the daytime for anyone who wants to visit.
You (and other priests) have the pastoral problem of getting men involved. We're lucky in that we are a relatively small parish, so "all hands on deck" seem pretty needed. One of the reason I've stuck with this parish over the years. I'd be "lost" in a big parish with 3000-5000 people. We really get to "know" each other here, and I expect that makes a difference. If you see something that needs doing, you pitch in.
We're lucky to have some good men who cook too (some of whom have worked professionally) -- so for those Fri. monthly fish fries and Sunday pancake breakfasts, the men can take a pretty prominent role too. We seem to have a variety of activities, some predominately women, some men, and quite a few they do together. So it works.
At any rate, you sound like a good orthodox priest, so I'm sure you keep a good handle on orthodoxy.
I'd want the axe to come crashing down if anyone, male or female was teaching contrary to church doctrine when they were carrying out their duties as catechism teacher etc. It seems to me if the pastors would exercise "due diligence" over their staff both paid (counselor types) and volunteers (catechism types) problems with orthodoxy are under control. So if people are bitching about the situation in their own parishes, perhaps its not really the [unorthodox] laity that is the biggest problem....but the priest in charge who permits it to continue. Maybe it's HIS orthodoxy which needs to be called into question. That or he's not watching his chickens! Or roosters as the case may be!
AS many have stated most paid jobs in my diocese are held by women. A man could not support a family on what the Church pays.
My parish is lucky to have a male youth minister who made enough money in his previous job, and has a successful profession wife. So by tightening their belts, as the saying goes, he is able to devote himself to the ministry he feels called to.
As for Extraordinary Eucharistic Ministers we have about a 50/50 split, not surprising since in most cases they are couples. Lectors are also about evenly split. As are alter servers, though I have noticed that there seem to be more boys at some Masses, specifically the Saturday Mass than girls.
Elementary catechists seems to be 100% female. I must admit though I've done Middle and High School Catechism for at least seven years I've never thought about doing elementary school age children.
We tend to use a lot of High Schoolers to help with Middle School. I'm always surprised we get so many teenage boys to volunteer.
Interestingly we've had few vocations, even though we have boys who have been altar servers and volunteers.
Goes back to my theory that the reason we don't get more volunteers is that parents are not supporting vocations. The increasing age of seminarians seems to me to support this contention. Rather than choosing to discern while in high school and college, which earlier generations of priests did todays candidates seem to wait until they have been in the workforce for awhile.
Father, the response to this post has been magnificent and shows how necessary it is to ventilate the issue. I want to raise a different aspect. These days women form the majority of most Catholic congregations in the United Kingdom and the majority are elderly. What is daunting, but never emphasized, for seminarians is the hard reality that, once ordained, they will be ministering to a largely feminine and increasingly feminized Church. To be brutally frank, many of the pious female laity are not only demanding, selfish and possessive, but quite often nasty, manipulative, argumentative among themselves, attention-seeking and, in many cases, bats. They would, if they could, eat a priest for breakfast, lunch, tea and supper and still have room for more. Once put in a position of responsibility they can make a priest's life hell and cause endless trouble among others. As for the religious professionals among them, those who attend and give courses, their bossiness and generally hostile attitude towards priests is competitive, divisive and frequently insulting. Sorry to raise these issues but, in the end, a future spent in this unbalanced setting is what decided me to quit. Another feature was an increasing tendency of the newly-retired (those of 50+) with little to do to take up the Church as a form of recreation. This has many good qualities but, in the end, sometimes proves counter-productive because they invariably elbow-out younger people and try to rule the roost. The basis of this ascendency was what they thought was 'experience' but, in the end, amounted to little more than selfishness and a desperate need to feel wanted and useful. Mowing the lawn was not good enough, interfering in the accounts and determining parish policy was the goal. I was always aware that the fundamental role of a priest was to serve but the reality of service seemed to point to a life pandering to the neurotic and self-serving rather than working apostolically. I am now happy to be a married Catholic layman with a young family and see my vocation as being a Catholic in the workplace and local community rather than enshrined in what one of my Anglican friends calls 'churchianity'. Sorry if this sounds arrogant. As for my parish priest, we all back him up to the hilt and encourage his endeavours on an entirely non-competitive and undemanding basis. He has much to put up with but he is always welcome in our home and our children love him. One final point. Recently many young Poles have joined our church and have brought a spiritual dimension that fills my wife and I and others in the congregation with awe and admiration. Their example has much to teach us and we value their presence enormously. If anything will balance our priorities it is their solidity, example and devotion. I have never encountered people who pray the Mass more fervently than them.
This is surely going to be a problem as long as retreat centres dish out all the psycho-babble stuff instead of focusing on Our Lord. You say you have a background in psychology, Father, so isn't it time you and Joanna Bogle got together to write a book called 'The Ennyolegrot and All That', or something like that?!
Not strictly relevant to this post, but please do advertise somewhere the mission being given by the excellent Father John Edwards SJ at Farm Street church in Mayfair after the 6 o'clock weekly mass every day in July. Thanks.
Eeyore - thanks for the notice about the Mission at Farm Street. I have put up a post about it.
Former seminarian - Priests will all recognise some of the problems you describe and I do think that seminarians need to be prepared for this, and more particularly for the more extreme manifestations of Borderline Personality Disorder which are rarer but likely to crop up from time to time and can be a real nightmare. Actually, I think that some of the stuff that is done nowadays about "boundaries" is helpful and important in this respect. Although a priest should be a friend and father, he also needs to know when to keep his distance both emotionally and physically - the presbytery should always include some private space where he can be alone to study and pray.
It is important to keep things in perspective, however - the priest will also encounter saintly, and heroically unselfish souls who bring peace and holiness to parish relationships. I think of some of the older women as modern versions of Anna the prophetess. Part of the exercise of priestly authority is to make sure that they have elbow room.
One of the ways that I try to help people understand what is going on when there are arguments is to say that we all want the other person to be perfect. But none of us is; we're afflicted by original sin and actual sin and that manifests itself in the jealousies and discord that you speak of. In the end, it is all about helping one another in the path of holiness. There is also St Josemaria Escriva's wonderful saying that is quoted by priests with a wry smile "Do not think 'that person annoys me'. Think 'that person sanctifies me.'"
I'm sure that your priest greatly appreciates the support that you give him - God bless you.
I believe St Josemaria Escriva got it right. Our focus should be on the 'lay apostolate' not on 'lay ministry'. Please leave the ministry to our very able and ordained Clergy.
Personal holiness I think is more in union with gentle and humble apostolate in one's everyday life and simple situations in the workplace, while socialising, in the high street and at home for example.
Lay ministry on the other hand (not including Deacons, altar servers or special ministers in the most exceptional of circumstances) smacks to me of grandiose self indulgence and self importance.
Yes, Father, you are right but the problem is that those on the stage catch more attention than the rank and file in the audience. I must point out, however, that many of the elderly in our congregation are exactly as you describe and lead good and saintly lives marked by great kindness. They have slogged it out through thick and thin. But I hate seeing priests crucified by the rest. Suffering is at the heart of our vocation, priestly and lay, but I wish much of it did not come from the outwardly pious and observant. Thanks for responding.
I'm reminded of my childhood [bear in mind I'm not yet forty] I live in a town of fifty thousand with about 60% catholic and about 60% of those regular sunday attendants at mass - three large parishes with 4,3 and 2 priests, and one priest running a small external parish and church in a separated housing estate. Sunday Mass times at the first church were 5a.m. 6:30, 7:30, 9, 10[Latin], 11.15, 12.15, 4:30 p.m. and 7 !!! three hours of confessions on saturday [3 priests], devotions and benedixions sunday at six, novena devotions on thursdays, exposition on fridays, sacred heart first fridays, Our Lady of Mt Carmel {Brown Scapular] saturdays, three school masses a week, each priest said a church mass on their own each day , there were also Polish masses, masses in the convent, hospital masses, prison masses, the church was hectic with SVP, legion Of Mary,union of catholic mothers, Martha group, young Christian workers, Choir, Knights of St Columba, confraternity of St Stephen - normally with a priest in attendance ; the priests were on hospital/prison/school rotas for visiting as well as all the diocesan and administration and deanery work - they had to care for themselves mainly [a 'daily' did a few hours tidying/cleaning in the morning] but do you know what they spent most of their time doing? at least fifty percent of their weekday lives was spent VISITING parishioners !!!!
The poor, poor, hard done by priests in the US ; so, so much to do in this hectic modern world - believe you me I worked with one and he was a good nominal representative of the norm - he did, if you'll pardon my French - Bugger all!!!
I was received into the Church twenty-five years ago and have never had a moments regret since. I have nothing but gratitude for being given the grace to take this step. I am a Londoner and I decided that, wherever I lived, I would attend my local church rather than travel to worship at Westminster Cathedral and churches like the Oratory and Farm Street. This I have not regretted as I have had a sequence of excellent parish priests. The only fly in the ointment has been seeing the emergence of lay ministry and the mentality that frequently goes with it. It reminds me of the lay clericalism that marked Anglicanism when I moved on and the pettiness and rivalry that accompanied it. Having experienced its congregational downside I am saddened to see it appearing fully-formed in ordinary Catholic settings, often encouraged by the clergy. In itself this creates ardent loyalties and when a priest leaves his successor is often judged by the way he reacts to the laity appointed by his predecessor to 'ministerial' roles. Overnight a priest is no longer seen objectively as the parish priest but as the 'new man', in the same way that in Anglicanism the vicar becomes the 'new vicar'. Half the congregation support him because he is not his predecessor, the rest oppose him because he is. Any changes are resented on principle but frequently on the basis of lack of consultation. Changes often mean modifying lay ministries to give others an opportunity of fuller participation in parish life. Strife ensues, embodied in a lack of support or respect for the new priest. At one time I would not have thought this possible in a Catholic context. Constantly the promotion of lay ministry is defended by reference to Gaudium et Spes yet I cannot see any clear reference that encourages the present pattern. I know little of Opus Dei but on the rare occasions I have encountered members my admiration for them increases and Opus Dei priests make good confessors, as I discovered when I learnt that I had been going to one for some time without knowing that he was a member. They lead exemplary Catholic lives that seem to be as natural as breathing and the world is the scene of their apostolate. Opus Dei seems to embody lay apostolic life in the way that Vatican II desired, even though it is a vocation not meant for all. When I have tactfully tried to point out how Anglican many of the attitudes I have encountered recently in parish life seem to be I am faced with a combination of annoyance and incredulity. I am impressed by the comments made by 'Former Seminarian' on the arrival of the Poles in his parish. I have seen the same and welcome them with gratitude. They and others from Central and Eastern Europe who are making their home with us will, I hope, save many ordinary Catholic parishes from becoming small clubs and make the self-conscious, critical and interfering realize that responsibility for the present and future does not rest on their shoulders alone but with the whole body of whom the priest is the shepherd as well as the door, the alter Christus among us. I apologize for commenting at length but you have raised one of the most crucial issues affecting the Church at the present time and I hope it won't turn into a crisis from which there is no escape.
It is refreshing to read comments that respect the priesthood and recognize the Church's hierarchical structure. Both are in crisis in Ireland since the clerical abuse scandals which have done incalculable harm to the priest's symbolic role as the seat of moral authority. The Church is in stagnation and the problems associated with lay ministry on the mainland are not so evident here. There are shrill pockets of lay protest but they mainly seem to be attached to religious Orders like the Jesuits. They are still living in the 1970s. What, however, inspires my comment are the references made by other commentators to the influence on British parish life of the Poles. Thousands have poured into Ireland in recent years, aged between eighteen and thirty-five, and I, for one, welcome them. They are slowly transforming dead Catholic parishes and having a profound influence on many. Many of us Irish are wide-eyed at their devotion at Mass (upon the whole we are a placid, docile people in church) and have seen nothing like it before. Growing numbers of Irish people are preferring to attend Polish Masses because they challenge the deadness and disillusionment that has become general. We still have many good, faithful priests but they are intimidated by the hostile attitudes towards them since the scandals and few any longer wear clerical dress in public. They are wary of being verbally abused and some have been threatened by physical violence. This means that the Church is now virtually invisible on the street as many sisters have also given up wearing habits in public. But the Polish priests are not afraid to be seen and I cannot help wondering if the mission of the Polish people is to evangelize the Church in Europe by example and fidelity in the same way that Pope John Paul II revived the Church after the bleak years immediately following Vatican II. Whether the Church in Ireland will ever recover remains to be seen but the Poles are helping it forward on a grassroots level and many of us welcome that. The fact that they are young is also influencing young Irish people, most of whom have turned their backs on the Church.
The response to this post has been astonishing and I have enjoyed reading all the comments. You really have touched a nerve. Why not turn this subject into a book? It would, I think, attract strong interest and ventilate a topic that needs to be addressed and discussed widely.
Eamon - the Church in Ireland will recover you can be sure.
I am of Polish descent my mother and father were WW11 refugees from Poland.I was born in and have lived all my life in England. My parents helped set up a Polish parish in the early 60's in London, and it was the Irish Passionist Fathers who welcomed the small group and allowed them space within a busy Irish community to hold Mass on Sundays. Over time the Polish community grew and we worked with our Irish friends for many many years. This good work continues to this day.
Poles and Irish always get on well together (good drinking buddies!) but their depth of Faith is unshakeable, dodders now and again, but unshakeable.
In my own personal experience I thank Our Lady of Knock for bringing me to my senses many years ago while on a business trip to Ireland. Without that experience I do not know where I would be today. Thanks God for the Irish and God Bless Ireland abundantly.
Fr. Tim,
I keep hearing from my family members who live in the UK about the positive effect that the wave of Polish immigration is having on the Catholic Church there.
I hope that the devout Poles who have moved to the UK don't get so sick of the emptiness and cynicism of secular British culture that they decide to return to the spiritual oasis of Poland. If they can be induced to stay, this migration will be as momentous for British Catholicism as the influx of Irish in the 19th and early 20th centuries.
It has certainly thrown the drabness and secular feel of a lot of British Catholicism into very sharp relief.
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