BRITNEY SPEARS CONCERT CANCELLED! Unfortunately, our efforts to get pop sensation Britney Spears to perform a benefit fundraiser for the parish have proven unsuccessful. Her calendar is full. Therefore, those who have been arriving at Mass every Sunday dressed for a Britney Spears concert should know that they don't have to do that anymore. Modest church-going attire will do nicely. We will notify you if the situation changes.H/T Fr Z.
Friday, 10 August 2007
Modesty - how shall we put this?
Making announcements about modesty in dress can be a challenge for the average parish priest. A little humour could help here. Thanks to The Deacon's Bench:Bulletin announcements I'd like to see, we have just that. My favourite:
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Very funny but very necessary! Re modesty in more recent years i've taken to wearing long dresses & skirts..in reparation for my immodest youth! i haven't joined the Amish! But i also think women should leave wearing the trousers to men! Ouch! That hurt! lol. This from a former jeans/track suit type of person. My friend wrote a good article 'Who wears the trousers?' which i'll reprint to my blog...but it's so much nicer to pray in Mass suitably attired..to be honest people often comment how elegant i look..didn't do that when i wore my jeans! Another topic Fr Tim? Should women wear trousers/slacks/pants? i don't mind being the only one honest...
Fr Tim, you clearly haven`t had the "privilege" of attending the various Catholic conferences over the Summer. Dress Code for the New Dawn in Walsingham for ladies apears to be: Strappy T shirt with skimpy shorts - leaving those of us dressed appropriately for being present before the Blessed Eucharist feeling er.... a bit frumpy. PS there are still a few spaces left for "A day with Our Lady" at Belmont Abbey on Wednesday 15TH August, to include lunch, £14. You won't regret it. More like a Week with Our Lady. it`s amazing. 01432 374735.
I’m afraid I can never resist a comment on this topic, which is one of my pet peeves… I’m sure Jackie and others like her are deeply sincere and I wouldn’t want to criticise them. But I really think that this “no trousers” thing among some Catholics has gone a bit far. There are other far more important things to worry about in the Church. It was a delight to see all the young people at the recent Faith gathering at Woldingham – surely it’s a little petty, to say the least, to ask these girls in jeans who obviously think deeply enough about their faith to have given up part of their summer holiday to attend, not to wear trousers. It’s really refreshing to see normal, trendy young people enthusiastic about Christianity. Trousers are not “per se” immodest. Nor, these days, can you call them “men’s clothes”. There are women’s trousers and men’s trousers after all. And many very devout Catholic ladies were wearing trousers for activities like hiking and sports way before Vatican Two. It’s how you wear them and when it’s appropriate. That’s not to say that trousers are always appropriate – there’s a good argument that you should dress for Mass as you would if you were going to an important lunch, with the Queen say. You probably wouldn’t wear trousers for that. But I certainly wouldn’t condemn those who do.
The best thing I ever heard on the subject was years ago, from a dear old colleague – a deeply Christian but rather large lady. When I asked her if it was OK to wear trousers in my job as a very novice teacher, she said, “Well dear, it depends on the size of your bottom!”
Geez, Jackie. Don't GO there.
You are too young to be an old biddy. You are EXACTLY the kind of woman who makes other women want to grab a cigarette and two shots of bourbon!
Even ones who don't smoke, or particularly care one way or the other about drinking. Go ahead and wear a skirt long enough to make people wonder if some backwoods Pentacostal Holy Roller gal from Arkansas is visiting your neck of the woods, but give the rest of us a break. Fr. Tim isn't married, but I bet even he has enough sense not to answer a "Dear, does this dress/outfit/whatever make my butt look big?" type of question. Ditto: "Dear, if I die, would you remarry?"
Overworry about "repenting" for sartorial excesses in your youth makes it sound like you spent 5 years in a Hamburg window with the red light flashing! And even I doubt if that's the case. Don't GO there!
It's "Reasonable" to expect people to be covered so that a priest wouldn't have to worry about retrieving a dropped Host from your cleavage, or about your butt cheeks hanging out so no one sees a "rising moon" if you drop a misalette, -- and yes, it's proper to refrain from t-shirts spelling out "boytoy" or the mormon kid's Hawaiian "Kamanniwanna Lei U" fake "universtity" t-shirt - but get a grip! I have known too many people put off from going to Mass because they felt unwelcome that OTHER people didn't think they were nice enough looking to be there, through lack of charity.
Karen H. -- San Diego, Ca.
Hi Fr,
I hope this also refers to those men who dress for Holy Mass as if they were about to join a beach BBQ!
Shorts showing horrible hairy legs (some with daft tattoos) and flip flops, with an open top Hawaiian style shirt???? (And that's just the ladies!!!!! Hah ha!)
For Heaven's sake - you are coming to Mass to worship and adore God. Would you dress down if you were invited to meet a Head of State or the Queen???? How much more important then when you meet the KING OF KINGS every time you are at Mass!
Whatever happened to dress sense, that sense of occassion, elegance, style, debonair fashion, even good 'ole Sunday best!
It seems crazy but yes, I believe that some well placed comments about dress sense for Mass are necessary and should be made by PP's. I also think that simple 'dress code' posters could be put up in the porch next to the 'no smoking' signs! I'm sure these would help as a reminder.
Has anyone come up with 'no gum chewing during Mass' signs yet? Seeing people 'chewing the cud' during Mass really gets me!
There, that's my rant over for today.
I know of someone who put a notice on his parish porch board giving directions to the nearest beach for those attired for the beach. It did not survive too long!
regards,
Ken
Thanks Karen! You do make me laugh!You're right i'm still a youngster! & the sins of my youth weren't great..an odd short skirt or so. i hear the other comment about the youth..i have some gorgeous daughters wearing short skirts/jeans etc..not in Mass mind you...but now i have more time to visit Our Lord with my baby turned 6 it's nice that at any moment since our Church is open most of the day that i don't need to change. Also really one doesn't have to go all 'frumpy' just because one wears skirts..there's denim & the lovely Indian cotton fabrics..& the ethnic look is all the rage...so i'm quite often described as 'bohemian' along with 'elegant'. The women (Catholic) i know who wear the same were/are all mothers of large families & quite trendy really.
If you look forward during Mass i can't help but notice even on the very thin ladies that one sees rather too much. i don't think that's good for the men who could do without any distractions of that sort.
Regarding the man who mentioned the men's hairy legs..absolutely! It's taken me years to get through to my husband..i mean it's beach wear even if the shorts reach the knees. Anyway i don't want anyone else looking at his legs thankyou!i have to remind him about Lourdes..saying 'you know Andrew when you're in the Domain...'He still loves me!
i think our Priests should remind us on suitable attire..& parents will just have to do their best to explain the value & importance of modesty..so Karen..i'm afraid i will go there & say there!God bless
Another thing about women in the past..one of my favourite pictures is of the man & woman heads bowed in prayer for the Angelus. Although working in the fields the woman wears her long skirt (someone will tell me the artist). i'm not suggesting we women go backwards...but rather ever forwards keeping the separate rolls of men & women clearly delineated.
In London when i met Joanna bogle & some other strong Catholic women..we were all wearing long 'trendy' skirts..thoroughly modern women enjoying our feminity...
I’m sure Ann is being very sincere in expressing her opinion on the matter, but I would want to criticize this opinion if it is leading young people into error – it is one of my pet peeves, that there is no one advising Catholic men and women on what is immodest dress, and what is appropriate to be worn not only for Mass, but at all times and in all places. I think that there should be some guidance from the Church on this subject, actually, I think there is in the writings of the saints, and previous Popes, it just needs to be re-emphasized by a few courageous Priests. I began to cover my head in Mass in my old parish, (even though I felt really silly at the time) as an act of reparation for all the young girls, who turned up at the Holy Sacrifice dressed in low cut jeans and crop tops, with their nether regions hanging out for all to see, waltzing into the sacristy to change into their altar girl outfits, or onto the sanctuary to read, or be extraordinary ministers. Now that my husband, young son and I travel around in order to attend the Latin Mass every Sunday, that is one thing we don’t often have to endure, although we recently noticed the most peculiar sight of young girls in mantillas, but with tight, and low cut clothing, showing off bellies, and other parts!! It looked so ridiculous, and showed that a lot of young people have absolutely no idea of what pertains to modesty. Everyone has a responsibility to be suitably attired, so that none of us leads another into sin; there are plenty of people out there struggling with purity, indecent images surround us, and as Catholics we have a duty to be counter cultural, if the culture is not conducive to living a virtuous Christian life. It is not true to say that trousers “per se” are not immodest – for if they show off the form of a woman’s bottom and crotch area, (to be blunt about it) which they always do, unless they are extremely baggy, which in our Western culture is very rare, then they are showing off an area that should only be beheld by a woman’s husband, or not be seen at all. If trousers are worn with a long top that well and truly covers the woman’s nether regions, then they could be said to be modestly worn, but how often does that happen? I don’t want to criticize all the trendy young girls who go to the youth retreats over the summer, but I bet a lot of those who are attending, adoring the Lord, and listening to good talks, would welcome some advice on modesty, and how God will love them even if they’re not trendy! You don't see Mary appearing with bare arms, or in trousers, and at Fatima she mentioned that there would be fashions that would displease God very much - now are we going to spend our time debating exactly what she meant? I, for one will continue on the path of caution, knowing that, if I at least dress in modest dresses and skirts, it will be one less area wherein I can displease the Lord.
I didn't think there was any harm in women wearing trousers until I read Colleen Hammond's book, Dressing With Dignity.
She describes an experiment where scientists studied eye movements of men when they looked at women who were dressed in a variety of outfits. They found that trousers seemed to draw the gaze to the area of the crotch, whereas women in skirts got more attention in the face area...
Knowing that, if I were a trouser-wearer, I would find that extremely embarassing...
I do hear what you folks are saying re: "too tight" clothing, ditto a lot of clevage, and I would agree. But I am NOT going to stop wearing jeans, bermeuda shorts, etc. because some bozo Arab or Arab cousin gets excited about anything not covered in a burkqua. I gather men get excited by anything larger than a 28AA cup and though I will "fortify" myself from flopping around, I'm not about to do the equivalent of Chinese footbinding on Sarah and Jane.
What do these people say re: scotsmen in kilts, especially in a blowing wind and the guy is going "commando?" I don't hear any fussing around about them being dressed in "women's clothing."
And that goes for that tent maker St. Paul fussing about women having their head covered and men praying without head covering yada-yada...
It's all cultural crap. Now, pastorally, there were women with extremely ornately done hair in the bizzaro fashion of the day...so yes, he might have said "head covering" -- because yes, it might have been as distracting as someone walking in today in a bikini. But does he stop there? [He didn't even know he was writing "scripture" at the time. ] No, he has to twitter on about some strictly cultural issues as though it was "God's law." Always a weak argument, IMO.
I think the note Fr. Tim found about "hey, this is not a Britney Spears concert" hits just the right note. In other words "we're not expecting you to look Amish, but leave the hooker-in-training-things to halloween at home."
As regards the bermuda thing. That is sort of cultural even in the west. It might not be appropriate in Boston, but it wouldn't bat an eye in a southern california (or Hawaiian for that matter) tourist area. Now again, they should be long enough not to see a rising moon, and we don't want to see "plumber's crack." But most have enough sense to wear a long enough shirt, etc. Spaghetti straps just aren't appropriate -- because 99% of the time they are holding up a tank top that may be okay at the beach on a young girl, but not at Mass.
I am just very leery into people trying to force me submitting to wearing skirts. Maybe some women want to buy into this. Their choice as to what makes for comfort. However, I will never agree that wearing panty hose is comfortable, and frankly if there were ever a product with built in planned obsolescence it would be panty hose. I curse the person who invented it. The stuff doesn't easily pull on past mid thigh, and I frankly don't have 15 minutes to put a pair on. Because if you wear a skirt, then you have to wear hose. If you wear hose, then you have to wear heels, another thing design by man to give 90% of women who fall for those things foot/calve/ankle problems. It's a never ending trap. Sure it's easy for men to look good in white tie--or dinner jacket. It isn't half as involved as a woman having to struggle into pantyhose. Ripped panty hose is not something I want to have to spend money on replacing. There's a "ha-ha suckers" item if ever I saw one.
well Karen, we can wear our Doc Martins,crocs,sandals,socks etc..i don't wear the tights you mention, nor heels..so am perfectly comfortable. i just love St Paul & think his suggestion of head coverings is spot-on. just haven't had the courage to wear my mantilla yet..but love seeing it worn by other women.
Never say anything in front of small children you would rather not have repeated in public.
One day my friend mentioned that she had tried to get away with going out with her friends wearing a rather short skirt.
Her brother had caught her coming down stairs and said "Are you going to wear a skirt with that belt?"
Well a few days later we were going out when some girls from the local school walked by in their usual short skirts and my then 3yr old said in the loud voice of a 3yr old boy "LOOK MOMMY, THOSE GIRLS HAVE NO SKIRTS WITH THEIR BELTS!"
Karen I'm with you on 'panty hose' or tights as we call them here. But if you must wear them a little nail varnish on either end of a beginning ladder will help preserve the $*&$" things for a day or so.
I can get away with trousers (although I don't wear them often) because although the Good Lord has blessed me (ahem) with an...ample...bottom, it tends to be hidden in the wheelchair so its safe enough. :)
My girls can wear trousers and sesnible jeans (no tight ones). I have never allowed 'short' skirts or short shorts.
A friend gave her a dress that is not that short, but shorter than she is used to and she refused to wear it for ages. Bless her. Now she will wear it with 40den tights. Fine by me. it's modest.
For Mass we all dress in the best we have and try to look as smart as our very limited budget allows.
My personal pet hate is play boy tops, aggressive death skull stuff
and just scruffy made-no-effort.
Mind you my oldest can look scruffy even in a shirt. I don't know how he does it. It's a (dubious) skill!
Karen, have you ever thought of having your own stand-up comedy act ? I`m sure the Edinburgh Festival could find you a slot....
white stone name seeker...sorry to hear you need to use a wheel chair..is that just some of the time? Any way God bless...
I really wish they would say something at my Church but.... unfortunately this is America and I can just hear the "hr-umps"
Modesty is one thing, but please, spare the 'trousers are only for men' stuff! I'll wear them til my dying day, and if they were smart enough, I'd certainly wear them if I had to meet the Queen. I also wear skirts but won't be seen dead in a heinous nasty tasteless and chilly mini skirt.
Sorry, but Colleen Hammond's trouser crotch study works just as well for women looking at men. In fact, it's been done, and women study a chap's crotch just as assiduously as a bloke would a woman's before having a look at the face.
Any of you chaps fancy wearing a frock?
Also, other studies have shown that the er, chest area of a woman is even more enticing for some chaps than lower down, covered or otherwise. Burka anyone?
I've got better far more important things to worry about than the odd bloke staring because I'm in a pair of jeans. Embarrassed? Not at all.
Custody of the eyes, chaps, and you'll all be fine...
The last thing the traditional liturgy needs is to be associated with all this modesty dress code nonesense. Last LMS pilgrimage I went on kilts for men and islamic dress for women seemed to be the thing. If the extraordinary rite is to have a chance it musn't turn into some kind of weird dress parade! Let's just dress normally!
Modesty, as St Thomas said, is about moderation. Our culture has extreme forms of dress for women seen as normal. So I think that modesty may sometimes be a little out of the ordinary compared with what is generally accepted. I do like the way that the magazine "Tamezin" encourages girls to be imaginative in finding ways to dress that are not frumpy.
As to looking at body parts, studies of pornography viewing show that far more men are interested (=tempted) by sexually explicit visual stimuli than women. It is sad that so many young girls are not given responsible advice on this. They may be flirting or joking about. The boys are not joking.
Dear Father
well done for posting this much needed comment. Some of the indignant posters really need to wise up.
I would like to say my insight on this matter came from hours before the Blessed Sacrament or reading the Fathers of the Church. But in reality it came from being a member of a pub soccer team in my youth. Some men are obsessed with women's outfits (or the lack of them) that reveal either curves or flesh. Nobody should dress for church like they are going to a disco - men or women. And on another point - whatever happened to the old idea of wearing your sunday best. I m amazed to see people who dress for work in a suit but slob out at Sunday Mass. When I was a little boy I had a smart outfit which I only wore to Mass. these days many kids at my pairsh wear Man Utd tops.
Hi, Father :)
The studies I referred to weren't of pornography, which some chaps do seem to have a proclivity for, they were of male and female students chatting to each other on a one to one basis, while their eye movements were tracked. The girls were just as likely to check the guys out as the guys were the girls, just while having a conversation.
I don't think the onus should be expressly on the girls to think about what effect their clothing might be having on a few blokes. The blokes also ought to be taught proper respect and not judge a book by its cover (or even lack thereof).
It can also be very hard to find appropriate clothing for girls without looking like a cross between what gran would wear and a Laura Ingalls Wilder fest. Having my daughter's confirmation this year proved that, but everyone managed to look presentably modest, even if some of the girls were wearing a couple of sizes too small.
I'm all for modest dressing, I hate to see vast expanses of flesh on anyone when I'm shopping or at Mass, I'd just hate to see kind of arguments in this country that are going on in the States. Colleen Hammond has some rather interesting takes on even the upper arm which I have to say are risible. She seems to be saying no skin should be showing on any part of the body save parts of the lower arms and hands. Check out her 'dressing with dignity' website for some astonishing arm bandages for girls wanton enough to wear a cap sleeved t shirt. Oh how my daughter and me laughed.
Let's just have some moderation from everyone, no-one wants to see builders bum at mass from either sex.
Anon - the reason I mentioned pornography is that it is overwhelmingly men who look at the stuff. This tells us something about the different ways that men and women look at the human body. They may both be looking but there is something very different going on.
So I do agree that men need to dress modestly; and I would agree with some commenters that it is a virtuous thing to try to dress smartly for Mass.
However - and women need to know this - what the average guy is struggling with (or giving in to) when faced with revealing clothing is very different from what the average girl is. Sad, I know, but that's how men are.
Fixing specific rules for dress is always fraught with problems and I don't go down that road myself except that for Confirmation the girls are asked not to wear mini-skirts (or FCUK or Playboy logos) and the boys are asked to wear a tie.
But general rules can be helpful. My favourite was Barbara McGuigan's: "Make sure that the first thing a boy looks at is your face." Another possible approach for a good and decent girl is to ask "Why am I wearing this? Will these clothes help provoke temptations that I should not be provoking?"
Yes girls do have responsibility & more so than the boys. That's just plain biology.The Cure of Ars would slate the woman allowing her daughters out dressed immodestly.Sadly i fail in this every single day with 8 daughters...but i don't like it & it's not for want of trying.So we need our Priests to help us in the difficult task of being counter-cultural.
Re the Man Utd top..yikes one of my boys had one on at Rednal..but generally i try & get a suit on them for Sunday.
Here in the US, things are much the same at Sunday mass, although, I have noticed a change in attitude toward dressing properly for mass.
Fewer men and women overall are showing up in shorts and flip flops, although, the angel hair straps with bra straps showing is still a problem!!
There also seems to be an attitude change about being told not to show up to mass immodestly dressed. Recently, posters showed up around my church asking parish attendees to observe silence (stop talking loudly before mass so others can pray) and watch the summer attire. As one of our priests put it "summer attire should be lighter, not less".
There has been, to date, little complaint about the posters.
Barb Rickman
Shelton Ct
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