Nothing in the GIRM, rubrics, or tradition (that I know of) requires the congregation to sing "Amen" more than once at any point in the Mass. Yet today every Catholic pewsitter knows that the IMPORTANT part of the Mass ISN'T the words "This is My Body" but when you have four chords and sing "A-A-MEN, A-A-MEN, A-A-A-MENNNN" and then repeat it. I've even heard catechists say that THAT is the point where the bread becomes the Body. Oh, and the scores for these "Great Amens" always have FFF as the closing dynamic. This HORRIBLY imbalances the Mass!Sorry to be corny, but I just have to say "Amen" to that. It is true - the "Great Amen" is not de fide definita, it's prominence in many modern sung Masses is entirely due to the particular views of some liturgists. It is perfectly OK to ditch it and just sing a little "Amen".
So when your priest sings "Through him, with him, in him" to the simple tone, just respond on the same note he used as the reciting tone: "Amen." If he uses the solemn tone (with the slurs on some syllables), respond according to the pitch he ends on "A-me-" and then move up a whole tone "-en." It's all so simple, no one can object to it if it's done routinely, and it makes SUCH a difference in how the Mass is perceived by the congregation.
Wednesday, 20 February 2008
Just sing a little "Amen"
Jeffrey Tucker has an excellent post entitled "Ditch the Great Amen". I must confess that this has been a subliminal annoyance to which I have not paid all that much attention. He quotes Gavin at Musica Sacra who says:
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I've heard "liturgists" say much the same thing of the acclamation, as if the Words of Insitution were somehow incomplete without it.
The "old" Mass of course has no acclamation.
And there is no noisy disruption at the end of the Canon.
But then there is a seamlessness in the "old" Mass which simply isn't there in the novus ordo.
Quite - the self-styled 'pastoral musicians' (who tend to be anything but pastoral)and the rather sad 70's liturgists have been peddling nonsense about the 'musts' of music in the liturgy for far too long now.
What about omitting the Gospel Acclamation if it is not sung?
The Great Amen at the end of the Canon is still used by liturgists to day to propagate the view that the consecration is not finished until the end of the Canon. ie inthe commentary put out by our Bishops on the Roman Document about the correct way to say Mass (Novus Ordo), the writer who never uses the word SACRIFICE Seems to make exactly this point. It is of course heretical.
The anglicans (at least the low Church ones) do not stress the words of consecration in any way but continue to say them as if they were of no special importance.
For them of course there is no sacrifice, no transubstantiation.
Ah-meh-EN! Why do we sing silly hippie stuff when we could be singing the Mass like they do at Pluscarden????????
P.S. Personally, I get totally worn out at the modern Mass. We spend so much time TALKING our heads off with all the prayers like some kind of race and I never have time to focus on God. I get so sick and tired of yapping my head off and then singing dumb hymns. Isn't there a quieter version of the Mass where we can listen more and talk less? (That's just my gripe of the day hehehe!)
At a meeting some time ago I had an altercation with a Diocesan representatiive who was telling the people that this was the moment whe the bread and wine were transformed. It is actully very clever. They have been trying to undermine the priests role so that it is the community who change the body and blood. Which is why a priest in England cannot say Mass without a community presence. Never mind what Rome says. Then if the Community then assent to the words of the priest with a loud `Amen` then the community have fulfilled there role in modernist catechetics. I have read a book where this is said openly.
Isn't there a quieter version of the Mass where we can listen more and talk less?
Oh yes, and it's becoming steadily more popular :-)
Isn't there a quieter version of the Mass where we can listen more and talk less?
Oh yes, and it's becoming steadily more popular :-)
I love to go to Mass, but if I can be honest I am happiest at a Mass where there is no singing, no hand shaking and no response from the laity. Just a time to be with God.
I'm not even particular about what language Mass is said in.
Amen Fr Tim. Amen.
I'd agree. I'd personally say that the cantor & organist we have now are paragons of mediocrity. Not all bad, just could be a lot better. Once in a while on certain songs they shine, but then "they" screw it up more often than I'd like. And yes, I am bitching and whining. Not much "we" can do about it as the cantor is the personal friend of the pastor. (ALWAYS botches the Psalm - and the organist finally is playing the right Our Father in gregorian chant style like we like instead of the sappy Our Father...but has to screw that up by playing it slow enough to make you wonder "who died." Feh. A pox on both of them. I'm "holding back" but I'd love to say what I really think.
Karen
Oh my gosh YES.
Even when I was back in my old parish in the UK, in the music group as a teenager, I detested all (and I mean ALL) of those "Great Amen settings." I understand what they're trying to do but seeing as the EP isn't ever prayed or chanted in that style it always completely jarred with everything.
Either just say "Amen" or sing the nice short completely learnable Gregorian-esque setting. Seriously!!
This is a very pertinent point. Thank you for this.
I will, indeed, remember it.
JARay
What is this "quieter Mass" Father? I'm so happy to see that I am not crazy for getting frustrated with all the talktalktalktalking we do at Mass! I'm a convert and I couldn't figure out why I was always "bored" at Mass and why my mind wondered but then I had Mass at Pluscarden Abbey and I was sucked right in! Now I see it's because there's just TOO MUCH quick rapid yapping and hymn-singing going on and no time to focus on Jesus and pray with wordless silence. Gregorian Chant is amazing in that capacity ~ I can sing it and yet still pray and focus!
At Pluscarden we still say all of the same prayers but they are said nice and slow and that does help lock my mind onto God ~ also, there are no hymns being crammed into the Mass and that's a huge help because things feel even less rushed and there's more quiet time. Still, it would be nice if there was much less "community involvement" at Mass and more quiet contemplation for us lay people!! It seems that JUST when I get focused on God I'm back to flapping my jaws!
As far as I'm concerned we lay folk can "get involved" through extra-Mass ministries and socials!! Mass is about Jesus, not about the laity feeling warm and fuzzy about each other!
Sorry, I was referring to the older form of the Roman Rite, the Traditional Latin Mass or "extraordinary form" as it was referred to juridically by Pope Benedict.
In the Low Mass, many of the prayers are said quietly by the priest. The responses are made by the server alone, and the Canon of the Mass is said quietly by the priest. Therefore there is a lot more silence, the people are able to participate prayerfully various sways, either by following the texts in a bi-lingual missal or by meditating on the mysteries of Christ.
You may find these notes helpful when you go to such a Mass for the first time.TLM - notes for lay people. There is a great deal of information and discussion on the internet. When I get a chance, I will do a post with some introductory information.
Well said, Father !
Coffee Catholic and other commenters can be sure of a quiet and reverent liturgy in the "old" Mass.
The novus ordo Mass can, of course, be celebrated quietly, without a lot of noise and distraction, and often is.
But this does not always happen, to say the least.
The "old" Mass, however, is largely silent, particularly the Canon.
This allows the celebrant the time and space reverently and meditatively to recite the all important prayers of the Canon, which is after all the most sacred part of the Mass, while the the people follow (interiorly) the prayers or meditate on the sacred mysteries.
Fr. Michael Clifton's comment usefully emphasises the central moment of the Consecration.
We are talking about the Mass of the Roman rite here, not the Liturgy of Adai and Mari (which contains no Words of Institution).
At the elevation, immediately following the Words of Institution, we see and adore the Eucharistic species held aloft by the priest.
If the Consecration had not taken place before the elevation, then at this point we would be worshipping bread and wine.
This would be idolatry.
I wonder how many Catholics today have considered the dreadful implication of this.
If the Consecration did not occur until the "Amen" at the end of the Canon, Christ would not be present on the altar in the Eucharistic species.
What, then, would be the point of the "Supplices te rogamus" prayer ?
Where would be the Sacrifice ?
Anyone, liturgists, musician, catechist,etc., who believes and teaches otherwise, believes and teaches heresy.
Actuosa participatio does not mean the people need actively to be "doing" things, making noise and disruption.
There is great need for silence and stillness in Catholic liturgy, time to reflect on the awsome presence of the transcendent Other.
And the modern liturgists, et al., if they have forgotten this truth, need to be reminded.
Who was the brainiack that decided we Catholics need to talk so much at Mass?! *Sigh*
Eloquently put by Coffee Catholic -
'there are no hymns being crammed into the Mass and that's a huge help'.
I often find that hymns are literally crammed into every nook and cranny in the Novus Ordo Mass - especially if there is an organist passionate about displaying their prowess on the 'ivories'itching to entertain all and sundry in the pews!
While I desperately love the Holy Mass in any form, and thank God we can still celebrate it in the UK, the TLM just 'ticks all the boxes' for me - on my knees in quiet awe and contemplation before my God thankful for His unfathomable love and mercy for me, a sinner.
Father,
When a priest intones in a clear and simple voice, it is as if he were inviting us to heaven; but then the choir with guitars & bojangles (or even the pipe organ) break in with a horridly dischordant "Amen" it is as if the response is "No, no, not heaven! back to earth!"
I posted this question over at NLM and thought I might post it here as well (for lack of responses). Please excuse the intrusion. The original comment:
I don't mean to impose on this lively discussion but I would like to make a request.
Recently I've read works pertinent to the subject of the Canon by the likes of Dix, Botte, Cumming, Easton, Jungmann, Bouyer, Klauser, Vagaggini, Mazza, Bugnini, Palazzo, McManus, Keifer, Bradshaw, Stewart-Sykes, et al., and I now find myself inspired to write an article in defense of the Roman Canon. I'm not sure where such an article would be published but I'm thinking of something more popular than scholarly (I lack any real credentials for one thing).
Thus far my reading has been mostly critical of the Canon and while I have reached many of my own conclusions (contra the reform) I would like to explore literature which treats of the subject in a more positive and "traditional" light.
Are there any books, articles or authors that come to mind as providing a systematic defense of the Roman Canon and/or criticism of the new prayers or the reform in general?
Thanks!
P.S. The intention of my article is to dispel various myths related to the Canon and the new prayers as well as to promote the use of the Canon among priests who celebrate the novus ordo. To this end I believe some reading on the spirituality of the Canon and perhaps mystical interpretations of the Canon would be useful.
I would suggest that your reading would in general be complemented by reading Alcuin Reid, Klaus Gamber, Joseph Ratzinger on the liturgy. I am not sure of particular works on the Canon (but others may help).
I would suggest looking at the various volumes of the CIEL conference proceedings which are full of scholarly articles in defence of the traditional liturgy. Also Adrian Fortescue's "The Mass, A Study of the Roman Liturgy", though dated now, is still useful.
Yes! I've always thought when the great Amen threw things off.
Laudate Dominum has certainly been busy reading !
Fr. Tim suggests some excellent reading.
The scolarship of Gueranger is admittedly from a much earlier date, but I wouldn't write it off on that account.
In fact, I think it is worth revisiting.
I know Fr. John Boyle recently found a re-reading of Gueranger's "On The Holy Mass" particularly useful.
It was said of Gueranger that he "lived, breathed and loved the Roman liturgy".
Not a bad epitaph.
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