"In terms of Classic paedophilia, as practiced by the Greeks for example, where it is an older man introducing a younger man or boy to adult life, I think there can be something to be said for it. And in terms of North African experience this is endemic."His Lordship also helped exonerate predatory molesters by saying that he felt that it would have been a nice thing for himself if he had been groomed by an older man:
"Now again, this is not something that appeals to me, although when I was younger it would most certainly have appealed to me in the sense that I would have greatly relished the prospect of an older, attractive, mature man taking me under his wing, lovingly introducing me to sexual realities, and treating me with affection and teaching me about life — yes, I think that would be lovely; I would have enjoyed that."The Bishop tried to justify his comments by making a spurious distinction between supposedly innocent fumbling and child rape, protesting that there were important differences, and that investigations could do more harm than good:
"In my opinion, the teacher or Christian Brother who puts his hand into a boy’s pocket during a history lesson, that is one end of the spectrum. But then there is another, there is the person who attacks children of either sex, rapes them, brutalises them, and then murders them. But the way things are presented here it’s almost as if they were all exactly the same and I don’t think they are. And I have to tell you this — I think that the children in some instances are more damaged by the condemnation than by the actual experience."Criticised for these remarks, the Bishop protested that they were from ten years ago and it was so unfair to bring them up now, especially since his other remarks on equality issues and human rights were ignored. He felt that people just didn't appreciate all his other good work and the fact that this was just an academic conversation.
[UPDATE] Oops! Sorry! This wasn't actually a Bishop attempting to justify man-boy sex romps by characterising them as loving, enjoyable and affectionate. It was David Norris, candidate for the Presidential election in Ireland. (See: Irish Examiner: Norris: References to boys and sexual activity taken out of context)So we must accept that this was just an academic discussion about classical Greece, it was all said ten years ago, and it is so unfair to bring it all up now. As the Irish Times says, it is really all just an implied slur against gay people. And as the Irish Independent says, bringing up this ten year old indiscretion is a case of people seizing an opportunity in a way that is "neither Christian, fair or in the true spirit of any republic."
Good to see the Irish press is keeping an even-handed and impartial view of things as ever.
30 comments:
@Father Finigan
'Some people' just read headlines both in newspapers and on blogs.
Just one person doing that with your article could start a malevolent rumour further fueling the attacks on priests.
The reason I say that Father Tim is that your headline disgusted me so much that I quite literally turned away, and then had to force myself to read further details. 'Some people' wouldn't have returned to the page.
Our Lady of the Rosary ( http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2011/05/visit-to-tomb-of-blessed-john-paul-ii.html ) pray for us!
PAPA VERO ORA PRO NOBIS!
Update: Norris presidential campaign in disarray as key staff quit.
The resignations follow claims about a court case in Israel involving Mr Norris’s former partner, Ezra Yizhak Nawi, who was convicted of having sex with an underage Palestinian youth in 1992.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2011/0730/1224301621244.html
Father, I get what you're trying to achieve with this post. However, I worry that some readers won't see the article through to the last few paragraphs, and the title - as you're no doubt aware - is incredibly scandalous. Keep up the good work, though Father. I thoroughly enjoy reading your blog.
Rather like a certain Peter Tatchell who was campaigning in the '90's for the lowering of the age of consent to 14.
See James Preece's post http://www.lovingit.co.uk/2010/09/peter-tatchell-not-all-sex-involving-children-is-unwanted-abusive-and-harmful.html
I know Tatchell has subsequently tried to wriggle out of this http://www.petertatchell.net/lgbt_rights/age_of_consent/index.htm (quel surprise), but I suggest you make up your own mind.
OK, I take the point that in feed readers, people might just be scandalised. I have amended the title accordingly
Just. WOW. Staggering hypocrisy and double standards from the Irish press/politicos.
This is a mightily effective post, Father.
--Benedict Ambrose
The most interesting thing about all of this is how much money seems to have been poured into the campaign. I don't know if there are limits on expenditure for the Irish Presidential but it would be fascinating to see the disclosure.
The second-most-interesting thing is just how few people of any stature, secular or ecclesiastical, there appear to be in the Ireland in these days. Where are the statesmen? Where are the saints?
I think the feed thing is very valid. There's a thing I only learned about recently called 'inverted pyramid' theory, which says that in journalism, you have to put your key facts at the start, as the longer an article goes on, the more readers tune out. This is a terrible shame for those of us who believe arguments should have a structure and build to a conclusion (as indeed should jokes and stories in general), but it does make the headline all the more important.
It looks as of today that Norris' campaign is probably a dead duck, mind, as Angelo says. He needs official backing even to be allowed run, and some of his promised backers have demanded clarifications from him. I think he'll probably call off his campaign.
This means it should end up being a straight fight between the two governing parties' champions - there'll be other candidates too, but they'll fall in the early counts, with those voters having chance to throw their secondary preferences into the Fine Gael or Labour hats.
I don't know, Father. On the one hand, it's clear that Norris should never hold political office given his repugnant views. Still... Norris hasn't vowed celibacy, hasn't abused a child, hasn't covered up someone else's abuse of a child and placed more children at risk in so doing, and doesn't present himself as a faithful disciple of Christ. I think I'd be more distressed if the press didn't hold the clergy to a higher standard than it does non-Catholic politicians who flaunt their sexual immorality.
Even if anti-Catholics in the press are relishing the current scandals (the Gawker treatment of the disgusting disclosures from Miami is a case in point), shouldn't we be more upset about the situation in the Church and the lack of reform, rather than hostile coverage of that situation? It wasn't too many weeks ago that the Father Superior of the Dutch Salesians was making excuses for pederasty after it transpired that one of his charges was a member of a paedophile rights group. How many more are there out there with similar views, but the sense not to air them?
After reading this article, the title of your post didn't scandalize me all that much...
@Father Finigan
Thank you Father, Matthaeus and I discussed this post on the street in Erith, and we both think that your revised post will now cause maximum damage to the adversary INSIDE 'n' OUT.
Our Lady of the Rosary ( http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2011/05/visit-to-tomb-of-blessed-john-paul-ii.html ) pray for us!
PAPA VERO ORA PRO NOBIS!
Does the media not see their blatant hypocrisy? They are perfectly aware of what they are doing, right?
It reminds me of the duplicitous way in which some elements of the press here in the UK canonise Peter Tatchell, also a gay "human rights" campaigner, even though he seemed (once) to support child-adult sexual relationships (http://www.lovingit.co.uk/2010/09/peter-tatchell-not-all-sex-involving-children-is-unwanted-abusive-and-harmful.html).
The same papers and broadcasters, of course, constantly condemn the Pope for his stance on homosexuality, and the Church as a whole for the sex abuse crisis - even though they Church has always condemned sex with children as one of the most heinous crimes.
It also reminds me of the outcry in the so-called liberal media when Roman Polanski was arrested in Switzerland a year or two ago. At the same time as some left-leaning or anti-theistic commentators were lambasting the Church for covering up historic child abuse cases, they were condemning the Swiss for arresting the "artist", Polanksi. They didn't seem to care one bit that this is a man who has been convicted in a court of law of raping a 13-year-old girl after plying her with intoxicating substances. He then, of course, fled justice and is now free once more and still on the run!
Father, to be honest, I think society has developed an obsession with paedophilia. Two days after the Cloyne Report was released I went into the shop to buy a newspaper. There were about 14 papers on the shelf (both national and local) and 6 of them had reports about child abuse/sex on the front page (none of that related to Cloyne). Today I went into the shop and the only paper I seen also had a report on the front page about a man who had sex with children.
Shane
Some people don't get sarcasm. I did a similar post regarding Roman Polanski and an accused priest and one person called me on it. When I told her that it was satirical, she admitted that she didn't read it that thoroughly.
Didn't stop me though. I still think satire works.
How sad that babies grow into children, who grow into adults, who think along wrong lines of thinking like the man in the post.
How we need Jesus, each one of us, continually.
And the Taoiseach said. . .
Good call, Zephyrinus!
Dear "_" (can't you get yourself a pseudonym?)
The press are not holding Norris to a lower level of accounting than clergy. I'd have no problem at all with that. The point is that they are actually defending him.
The reason Norris's views are so despicable is precisely that they exonerate and excuse deeds that are rightly regarded as crimes against minors.
The press is not defending a politician's flaunted "sexual immorality", they are defending a man who has argued in favour of sex with underage boys.
This is much more serious than "hostile coverage" of the Church. Essentially it is a cynical disregard for the protection of children on the part of the press when politically convenient.
in journalism, you have to put your key facts at the start, as the longer an article goes on, the more readers tune out.
This might explain why the teachings in encyclicals are so routinely ignored.
The pope's Verbum Domini was 104 pages long!!
"in journalism, you have to put your key facts at the start, as the longer an article goes on, the more readers tune out."
Speaking from an audible tune out perspective, I often mis-hear things aswell. I have constant tinnitus which can cause me to do this, although usually worse when it gets quiet, which it never does, ofcourse. I got mentally tired of trying to find a cure, which made me too tired to pray, then the thought eventually occurred to accept the bloomin thing and give it to God as a prayer for His purposes. This gives it some meaning and also rests my mind's agitation with it. I would go as far as to say, it's a cure!
Sorry, that was a massive digress. However, at Mass, the priest(I'm sure it was Fr Gregory Winterton) at the Edgbaston Oratory, where I occasionally attend Mass, said during his homily: "If you don't stop sinning, you will go to hell" Well, I heard, "if you don't stop 'singing', you will go to hell" and said, smiling, to my mother, who was standing next to me, how I didn't think we were that bad.......
Dear Father Tim
Congratulations on a superb piece of journalism on Norris. The hypocrisy is breathtaking.
I'm not a catholic but I'm disgusted in the way the church is currently being used as a punchbag by the secular Left.
More power to your elbow.
Many thanks
Dear '_'
re. your point '... and doesn't present himself as a faithful disciple of Christ' ... Senator Norris is a member of the Church of Ireland & regularly attends services in the cathedral in Dublin. Make of that what you will.
Fr Tim - interesting piece. As you say, if a bishop had said the things David Norris did, there would be uproar. However, he's not a bishop (nor does have any oversight of children; nor indeed, oversight of those who have oversight of children). He does hold public office, but interestingly, no one cared much about his comments at the time he made them or interpreted them as the Senator being an advocate of man-boy sex. They only were deemed worthy of the headlines years later when he threw his hat into the ring for higher office. In any event, his presidential campaign seems to be collapsing, not becuase of this incident but because of a letter he wrote in support of his former partner who was convicted of the statutory rape of a Palestinian boy.
Shane - as you said, the media seems to have developed an obsession with paedophilia. I think I'd rather a lot less moralising on the subject, esp. by the media & politicians (& endless, espenisve reports), & a lot more action on producing a decent workable child protection policy in this country.
Zephyrinus, the Taoiseach has nothing to do with this. His party, Fine Gael, recently chose its candidate for the ceremonial job of president, Gay Mitchell, a Member of the European Parliament. Furthermore, Fine Gael has been accused by some of blocking David Norris's candidacy from the word go by forbidding its members on local councils, most of which are now controlled by the party, from nominating him. Nomination can be done by either 20 members of Dail/Senate or of four city or county councils.
That aside, Father Tim says something that needs to be said.
SONGS & DREAMS FOR SAD SISTER DEPTFORD A Deo et Rege : PART 1
Spiral into the deep unconscious
Spiral into eternity
Mary Queen of living waters
Seep ever deeper into me
Round and round that mystic whirlpool
Round and round eternal sea
Mary conquer those depths uncharted
Mary conquer the inner me
Christ first man of composite nature
Christ the sacrifice to free
Mary Mother of our Creator
Accept this sacrifice of me
Senator Norris is, quite frankly, a bit of a loose cannon. His intemperate outburst in a radio phone-in last year went largely (no, totally) unremarked by the mainstream media. The only paper to feature it was the Dominican monthly freesheet "Alive". The background was an April Fool's day spoof on some radio programme concerning the Church selling off a medieval manuscript to meet its costs. Our distinguished Senator went on air to vent-off vituperously about how "they" (i.e. the Catholic Church) should never have been given emancipation. He fell for it totally, in other words. No apology was ever forthcoming, that I recall.
Only recently, our "paper of record", the Irish Times, devoted an entire second editorial to decrying how such a noble defender of minority rights (yes, you can guess which minority was being referred to) was being vilified by having his views about ancient Greek ephebophilia in that interview in 2002 being brought to light again. Effectively it was an unbalanced endorsement for his candidacy.
He's a wonderful Joycean scholar and a man of genuine erudition and wit but I think what has been brought to light this year shows that he has too much "baggage" to be a fit candidate for the Presidency.
Senator Norris has now withdrawn from the race. http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0802/breaking2.html
We have to understand that the paedophile hysteria of the last few years was never about child protection.
It was about demonising men and left-wing hate targets such as the church. It was about power.
That is why the downfall of Norris has given many -like me - so much satisfaction. It is always good when a witch hunt turns and consumes one of its own authors.
Even today in Edinburgh I heard a woman of the feminist persuasion bemoan Norris's predicament.
As a left-wing homosexual he has 'protected victim' status, you see.
- an untouchable. She was baffled and angry. I wonder what she would have said if it had indeed been a Bishop.
@thehiddenjobmarket, I think it was necessary to challenge the Anglo-Catholic and Catholic hierarchy on the issue of child abuse by priests, and the associated selective silence too.
We must also be able to draw a line under the scandal so that the vast majority of priests who are not guilty of such offences can be allowed to continue their good work.
Will you be supporting Boris Johnson's campaign for re-election as Mayor of London?
The jobmarket has certainly been hidden from me since Regina v Hobson 91, and the treatment I have received since Cameron came to power has been diabolical.Nick Herbert is the Government's Police Minister who has knocked back my FOOTBALL AGAINST RACISM IN EUROPE 1991-2011 City Challenge development casework (see http://www.facebook.com/james.cleverly/posts/10150258218618392 ) . He is an openly gay man who lives with his partner.
Please say a prayer for my London Catholic FAMILY BUSINESS.
Our Lady of the Rosary ( http://the-hermeneutic-of-continuity.blogspot.com/2011/05/visit-to-tomb-of-blessed-john-paul-ii.html ) pray for us!
PAPA VERO ORA PRO NOBIS!
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