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Tuesday, 5 February 2013

First reactions on SSM Bill


A sad day for civilisation. This afternoon and evening, in between various duties, I was able to watch the debate on the Marriage (Same Sex Couples) Bill for snatches of a few minutes at a time. Tweets from @spucprolife and other good tweeps were also very helpful. Every time I got a chance to look at Parliament TV, I heard excellent speeches from MPs opposed to same-sex "marriage" and it is clear that the general pattern of their correspondence was to receive a sackload of mail against the bill and only a few letters in favour, some of those characterised by abuse.

Edward Leigh has been a staunch opponent of the bill and his speech was very good. MPs were limited to four minutes: although it was wrong of the Government to bypass pre-legislative scrutiny and to push through the timetable motion, the time-limit for speeches meant that they gave an opportunity for a succinct case to be made - or in some instances, for a pointless but mercifully short ramble about equality, failing to address any of the key issues in the debate.

Here is just a part of Edward Leigh's speech, together with an intervention from Chris Bryant, and a pertinent riposte from Mr Leigh:
Mr Edward Leigh (Gainsborough) (Con):
We should indeed treat one another with tolerance and treat everybody’s sexuality with understanding, but the fundamental question we are deciding today is whether English law should declare for the first time that two people of the same sex can marry.

Parliament is sovereign—we can vote for what we want—but we must be very careful that law and reality do not conflict. In 1648, the Earl of Pembroke, in seeking to make the point that Parliament is sovereign, said that Parliament can do anything but make a man a woman or a woman a man. Of course, in 2004, we did exactly that with the Gender Recognition Act. We are now proposing to make equally stark changes to the essence of marriage. During the civil partnership debates, I was given solemn assurances on the Floor of the House, including by some sitting on the Opposition Benches now, that the Civil Partnership Act would not lead to full same-sex marriage.

Chris Bryant
rose—

Mr Leigh:
I am happy to give way to the hon. Gentleman who gave those assurances to me.

Chris Bryant:
Assurances from me do not necessarily determine what happens in Parliament in future. Several hon. Members have raised what I said in that debate. At that time, I believed that civil partnership was the be-all and end-all of the story. I have since entered a civil partnership and believe that the world has moved on. Many Conservative Members who voted against civil partnerships know that Britain’s mind has changed and want to reflect that in a change of the law.

Mr Leigh:
The worry some of us have is that the world, in the hon. Gentleman’s mind, could move on again, and that many of the assurances we are being given may not count for very much.
Quite so.

You can read the debate now at Hansard (it is not all there as of the time of posting, but I am impressed by the speed with which they have posted so much already.) The upshot is that the second reading was passed by 400-175, but commenters have immediately picked up on the fact that more than half of the conservative MPs who voted were in the Noes lobby. There were significant rebellions against the the whipped programme motion, as well as the money resolution and the carry-over motion. Political commentators are seeing this as a sign of a deep-seated rebellion and disaffection with David Cameron.

Yes, David Cameron, the architect of all this; where was he? Not in the chamber: he was very busy with some meetings, apparently.

There will still be much to do in the coming days, so be alert for guidance on how we can continue the campaign - we'll need to be writing to some peers soon enough.

19 comments:

A Reluctant Sinner said...

I was in the public gallery and noticed a few other Catholics sat there, too, including a central London priest. (There was also an Anglican priest present, but he seemed to be in pleased at the result of the vote.)

What I noticed, which might not have been picked up on the TV broadcast, were how ungracious the pro-gay marriage lot were whenever any opponent of the Bill raised reasoned objections - such as the connection between marriage and children. At such interventions, those who support the Bill just sniggered or sneered, or shook their heads as if it was completely ridiculous to mention children when discussing marriage!

There was a very oppressive feel to the evening, and I regretted going. The whole thing left me feeling quite disturbed. I fear for the nation's future.

David Cameron was there for the vote and was sat at the edge of the front bench (not really at the dispatch box) for the result, so he may not have been visible on TV.

Simon Platt said...

Meetings, eh?

God have mercy.

Zephyrinus said...

God Forbid.

I think it's time for the Monastery.

Does UKIP have a Monastery ?

johnf said...

I'm thinking of sending a Condolence Card to my local MP (who voted for SSM) to lament the passing of the Conservative party... assisted suicide

Damask Rose said...

I thought they'd vote for the Bill. Perhaps too many MPs nowdays are not living the married life as in days of old...

"...those who support the Bill just sniggered or sneered, or shook their heads as if it was completely ridiculous to mention children when discussing marriage!"

Bad, but is that to be expected now?

Unbelievable about Cameron!

I had been reading the on-line reporting of the Bill's discussion on MSN through the day and one MP said his child(ren)? at school had been called bigots and Nazis because their MP Dad didn't support SSM.

I did pray my Rosary at 12 noon. Perhaps I didn't pray hard enough or believe enough that the Bill got voted in? Why didn't Our Lady stop it? Perhaps it's part of our "faith journey". Maybe we will become stronger. Maybe we will get some more heroic priests to lead the way. Maybe it's a wake-up call? I'm trying to work it through in my own mind, but I'm scared.

The non-defence of Church-teaching including marriage and defence of gayness by Abp Nichols and the Bishops of E&W for a long time now has been a disgrace.

tempus putationis said...

The contribution from the Hon Chris Bryant lays bare the intellectual wasteland inhabited by so many of our 'leaders'. Logical inconsistencies abound in those mere five sentences. He also seems to think that it is appropriate to describe a cause he supports in terms of an act of assassination! (that but this blow might be the be all and end all: Macbeth I, 7). Bravo however to the 139 Tory MPs and 36 others who refused to redefine marriage.

Fr said...

I had to leave my TV and take to the horizontal position for a while - the waves of nausea and anger brought about by the mediocre quality of debate, along with a lack of understanding of some of the most basic issues by so many of the Hon and Rt Hon Members showed just what a shambles the Mother (or do we have to say 'parent' now?) of Parliaments has become.

Much of the talk was about feelings, emotions and being 'fair' to same sex attracted and transgender people - references to the enormity of the attempt to redefine marriage seemed to be met with sneers and derision.

The brave members who spoke so well against the Bill deserve our respect.

Let us hope that there are some candidates we can vote for in 2015.

Gungarius said...

This from Peter Hitchens

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2013/02/back-to-stalingrad-the-same-sex-marriage-debate.html

Amfortas said...

I am opposed to SSM. However, not all pro-SSM interventions were poor. David Lammy's was shameful and intolerant, yes. But Peter Bottomley's intervention was thoughtful and heartfelt. I disagree with him but his speech did not lack seriousness. It must be possible to debatethis issue without loosing our cool, however passionate we feel.

Vincent said...

The Conservatives only talk about change,
Labour never work on behalf of the country,
The Liberal Democrats and liberal and clearly not democratic (given their current role in government compared to their number of electors),
UKIP rely on their seats in the European Parliament to make them important,
I've never even seen a green person campaigning for the Greens,
BNP certainly aren't national.

I suppose it was asking a lot to expect Parliament to think about words and their meanings, yet expect a result in line with logic then...

Jonathan said...

In the debate the issue of Christians in marriage related industries was raised. It would be helpful to hear teaching from the Church about the duties of lay people in this respect. Must a landlord refuse to let his house or hall to a gay couple? If I run a suit hire place must I refuse to hire morning suits to two grooms? These actions will surely carry great cost and I am not sure I would have the courage for it without the explicit support and encouragement of the Church.

Gregory said...

Possibly unfair to single out one MP but...Iain Duncan Smith - what a genuine disappointment.

Robert said...

The British Parliament’s ignorant philosophy of being “Modern Britain”. I guess marriage between a man and a women is “non-modern”. What is the “Future”?. Marriage between a man or woman and their loving animal pets!. The smoke of Satan has entered the UK Parliament. Call me a quack for not being “Modern”. Just another temporary victory for Satan!.

John Nolan said...

I have known Edward Leigh since university days. It was he who arranged for a Tridentine Missa Cantata to be celebrated in the chapel of St Mary Undercroft in the Palace of Westminster (October 2006 - the Mass was of the English martyrs and was celebrated by Fr Julian Large of the London Oratory).

I thought his speech was superb, particularly his deliberate reference to the Catechism of the Catholic Church.





Damask Rose said...

Yes, well said Jonathan.

Family Guy said...

I was also impressed with Robert Flello. I believe he was the only frontbench Labour spokesman to oppose the Bill. I am still not convinced it will get through. Opposition will increase by third reading and the Lords are very much up for kicking the Government at the moment, and this doubly the case on a Bill such as this which a majority are likely to oppose. Keep praying!

Amanda Peter said...

For the battle of Lepanto the Pope asked all of Christendom to pray the rosary. Lets all pray our rosary with firm purpose. The smoke of satan is entrenched in our UK parliament. This type of diabolical possession of our Parliament can only now be defeated with prayer and fasting. O Mary conceived without sin pray for us who have recourse to thee and for those who do not have recourse to thee especially the enemies of Mother Church.

Amanda Peter said...

At the battle of Lepanto the pope asked all of Christendom to pray the rosary. Let us pray our rosary with firm purpose.

Amanda Peter said...

The smoke of satan is entrenched in our UK parliament. This type of diabolical grip on things is ast out only by prayer and fasting. O Mary conceived without sin , pray for us who have recourse to thee , and for those who do not have recourse to thee especially the enemies of Holy Mother Church.

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