Wednesday, 23 May 2012
Praying for the SSPX to enrich the Church
Last Wednesday in the main foyer of the Catholic University of Lublin, someone handed me a printout of the Vatican communiqué regarding the response of the SSPX to the doctrinal preamble. This was illustrative of the fast-moving nature of the story at the moment. Thanks to Rorate Caeli I was able to keep up with the developments via the iPad and a booster for 3G internet access in Poland.
Plenty of others have commented on the leaked letters, the possibility of a split, the re-publication of some of the more trenchant addresses of Archbishop Lefevbre, the likely resolution of the matter, and the essential role of Pope Benedict in the possible regularisation of the SSPX by means of a canonical structure. I accept the advice of several wise statements from those in authority within the SSPX that we should now pray hard. I pray for a good outcome that is pleasing to Almighty God and works for the good of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church founded by Christ on the rock which is Peter.
The outstanding document of the past couple of weeks is the Letter of the General Council of the SSPX which, I am sure, will go down in history as a prudent, charitable and balanced call to "work in the field" according to the will of Divine Providence.
This evening I had time to sit and watch the video made by the Catholic News Service of an interview with Bishop Fellay. First of all it is extraordinary that a mainstream Catholic new service would produce such a sympathetic piece. This is in itself a sign of the times. Secondly it gives us a chance to see something of the character of Bishop Fellay. I have to say that he comes across as a man of great warmth of character who could lead many in the renewal of the Church.
Our Lady of the Rosary, pray for us.
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Re: Bishop Fellay's "warmth of character".
He's also a very funny guy, with an ability to make a serious point at the same time as making people laugh. Good qualities.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7znKEDTqvc
There is about two hours, in ten minute slices of Bishop Fellay talking about SSPX and The Vatican on You Tube. He comes across as very warm with a sense of humour and a strong sense of The Church changing 'in maybe two generations. He also talks of The Pope being under terrible terrible pressure.
Well worth a viewing.
Dear Fr Finigan,
Great to hear your views on Bishop Fellay.
Looking back, I see that on 13 March 2009, I wrote in your blog comments: "Bishop Fellay seems to be growing in stature by the hour. This is a serene, filial and charitable statement that sets the tone for the coming doctrinal discussions with Rome. Let's pray for their success: this nonsensical division in the Church has gone on for far too long.
'The enterprise is begun; it is of God; it cannot be withstood.'"
I can't believe it's already three years since then, but I am glad to say I can stand by every word. Bishop Fellay has been a beacon of outstanding leadership, common sense, balance, and, yes, humour, for all these years.
I would also say, now that the famous letter to the other bishops has been made public, that Bishop Fellay's assistants, Fr Niklaus Pfluger and Fr Alain-Marc Nély, though relatively unknown and always passed over by the media, are men of real substance. I am privileged to say I know Fr Nély, and I would say he has played a pivotal - though unsung - role in the momentous events since 2005. As he once said (with a wide grin) to an old lady who told him he should get married, "Madame, je suis marié à l'église romaine sainte". A true man of the Church, a real pillar of strength alongside his superior; a man of great warmth and humanity to whom I owe much.
Let's pray for the three of them and our Holy Father...and the three other bishops, at this critical time.
Tuesday, May 22, 2012
We know there still is a problem. The SSPX like the Vatican assumes that there are exceptions of the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance
There still is a problem. The SSPX bishops and many priests like their liberal counterparts and the Vatican Curia still assume that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
This is what I wanted to say to Bro. Anthony TOSF in a comment on the website Witness for Church and Pope .
The SSPX must realize that we do not know any case on earth of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance etc. Bro. Anthony realizes this.
So if there is any cardinal or bishop who makes this claim he is wrong.If the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 assumed that the baptism of desire etc are defacto, explicit exceptions to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus then the Letter was wrong. I say IF, since the Letter mentioned ‘the dogma’ and the text of the dogma indicates all need to convert into the Church and there are no known exceptions.
If Pope Benedict XVI in Light of the World (p.105) assumes that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions then he is also wrong. This is an objective, factual error.
When the SSPX admits this problem in public it will mean that there is a now a new interpretation of Vatican Council II. Otherwise there is only heresy.Since the Nicene Creed says ‘I believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sin’ and the SSPX and the Vatican Curia says there is not one baptism but three.The dogma says every one needs to enter the Church the SSPX says yes, except for those in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire.
We still have a problem.
-Lionel Andrades
Lionel, you keep on about the point that "we do not know any case on earth of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance etc" but as I have tried to point out before, we do not actually know for certain any case on earth of anyone saved, except those that the Church has canonised. Your assertion therefore has no force in this argument.
If it is a question of your judgement or the judgement of the Holy Office in 1949, I will go with the Holy Office.
The letter said quite explicitly: "Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church."
The letter later says: "Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God."
This is not presented as an "exception" to the nulla salus doctrine but as a proper understanding of it.
It is you who are in error regarding the faith of the Church and I advise you to submit humbly to the teaching of the magisterium so clearly expressed on may occasions, rather than to rely on your own private judgement in defiance of that teaching.
Richard Williamson is also a very witty man. His take on modernist theology during a flmed lecture to students in the USA is brilliant. It is the English at their best.
Dear Fr. Finigan,
Praised be Jesus and Our Lady.
I asked you someone time back on this blog if you knew any one saved in invincible ignorance and the baptism of desire, you did not answer.
Fr Tim Finigan :
Lionel, you keep on about the point that "we do not know any case on earth of a non Catholic saved in invincible ignorance etc" but as I have tried to point out before, we do not actually know for certain any case on earth of anyone saved, except those that the Church has canonised. Your assertion therefore has no force in this argument.
Lionel:
So you agree that we do not know anyone on earth or Heaven saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance, Fr.Tim?
If it is a question of your judgement or the judgement of the Holy Office in 1949, I will go with the Holy Office.
Lionel: So will I.
The letter said quite explicitly: "Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church."
Lionel: Correct, so the Letter is saying that there is an infallible statement. It also mentions ‘the dogma ‘in another paragraph.
Here is the dogma. It does not mention any exceptions and says all need to convert into the Church for salvation.
http://catholicism.org/category/outside-the-church-there-is-no-salvation
The letter later says: "Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
Lionel: Yes in principle only. As a possibility only. Something known only to God. We cannot know these cases on earth. If someone is saved ‘by desire and longing’ it would be known only to God.
So ‘the infallible teaching’ could not include these cases.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God."
Lionel: We all agree that this is a possibility. It also does not contradict the literal interpretation of extra ecclesiam nulla salus .We know there are no known exceptions.
This is not presented as an "exception" to the nulla salus doctrine but as a proper understanding of it.
Lionel: It could never be an exception to extra ecclesiam nulla salus. If the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 assumed that it was then it would be an objective, factual error.
It is you who are in error regarding the faith of the Church and I advise you to submit humbly to the teaching of the Magisterium so clearly expressed on may occasions, rather than to rely on your own private judgement in defiance of that teaching.
I affirm the Magisterium with respect to the dogma extra ecclesiam nulla salus as quoted above from the website Catholicism.
I accept the Letter of the Holy Office 1949 when it refers to ‘the dogma’, ‘the infallible’ statement.
If the Letter indicates that the baptism of desire and invincible ignorance are exceptions to the dogma I reject this opinion since:
1. No other magisterial document makes this claim.
2. It is irrational to assume that there are these cases known on earth and they are exceptions to the dogma.
In Christ
Lionel
Lionel - I have indeed answered your question (several times now) but I have indicated that I do not accept the terms in which it is phrased. This is a perfectly reasonable procedure in logic. If you say to me "Do you know a single German who is sinless?" I am entitled to say "There is nobody apart from Our Lady who is sinless." That is a sufficient answer to the question without conceding any slur to Germans that might be implied in the way that the question is put.
Similarly if you ask me whether I know for certain of any individual on earth or Heaven saved with the baptism of desire or in invincible ignorance, I am not simply going to answer "No", I am going to point out that we do not know for certain of any individual being saved. Do you accept this?
There is now a further point that you seem determined to refuse to face. I said that the 1949 letter did not present desire or invincible ignorance as an "exception" to the nulla salus doctrine but as a proper understanding of it. You simply reply that there cannot be exceptions to the doctrine. Do you accept that the magisterium of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church can teach us that a proper understanding of the nulla salus doctrine can allow the possibility of someone being saved through implicit desire or invincible ignorance?
I am glad Catholic Mission made his comment Father Tim because it made you reply back with a Church teaching I was not previously aware of, but has cheered me up no end!
"Now, among those things which the Church has always preached and will never cease to preach is contained also that infallible statement by which we are taught that there is no salvation outside the Church."
The letter later says: "Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing.
However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God."
What Good News!
I have twice heard Bishop Fellay speak. Each time I was very impressed. I have also heard Bishop Williamson speak on one occasion. These events came about because on those occasions I had deliberately gone to our local SSPX chapel to hear them.
They both impressed me and I found nothing in what either of them said that I could not agree with in its entirety.
It is beginning to look as if the latter will not accept full union with Rome. What a great pity! They have so much to offer, but, as they say, half a loaf is better then no bread.
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