“Old bigots like you father should be shot and strung up.” Normally I don’t publish nasty comments, but on the post Gay Mass Bidding Prayers video I was more lenient than usual since I thought it fair for the gays to have their say on a post that criticised the Soho Mass. (My usual advice to bloggers for hateful comments is to delete them, forget them, and not refer to them. People who write such things are looking for attention and it is generally best not to grant it.)
On this occasion I break my own rule because I am intrigued by the suggestion that I should be both shot and strung up. I thought that this would be overkill (literally) since there would not be much point stringing me up if I had already been shot. Discussing this after Mass this morning, my MC did point out that the stringing-up might be a kind of ceremonial celebration of the shooting.
That could be a temptation, but such a spectacle, especially in our internet age, would be likely to backfire in PR terms for the gay community. (Certainly it would seem especially pointless, if the stringing-up happened first, for there to be a waste of ammunition peppering my already lifeless thorax.) At any rate, if there were to be a ceremonial post-shooting hanging, I hope that I could have a cross, acolytes and a thurifer. Although Fortescue doesn’t have any specific instructions for such a ceremony, my opinion would be that I should have a purple stole and the servers should wear plain cottas. Modern liturgists might suggest white vestments and decorated cottas (or polyester albs) for a "celebration of the life of..." but I would rather emphasise the need for atonement for my sins.
The thought occurred to me that if I needed to be shot, I would consider it a favour if the weapon used were the one pictured above, the early Remington Rolling Block which is a copy of Remington’s M1867, built under license by Wesley Richards in Birmingham and used by the army of the Papal States before their defeat by the forces of the Risorgimento. On the top of the Nock’s Form (the flat section of the barrel adjacent to the receiver ring) there is an image of the Papal tiara and the keys of Peter.
The traditional thing on such occasions is to shout Viva el Cristo Rey! though I am also attracted by Blessed Noel Pinot’s Introibo ad altare Dei. If it were to happen, I pray that God will give me the grace to do the right thing.
36 comments:
In many ways this is perhaps to be an age of martyrdom.
I do not want to be a martyr, but better a martyr, dead to this world, than dead forever to the next.
This "Gay" Mass is grossly offensive to all those thousands of good people, priests and lay, who strive daily to overcome their sexual weaknesses, and to lead good and chaste lives.
It is evil to tell them - "it's all ok, do what you want, and you're still a full part of the Church."
No - by our sins we separate ourselves from the Church. We know what out sins are, and we know who we are. And we know that the Sacraments are there to help us.
Those who teach the contrary have no love for Sinners. Pray for them too. Pray that one day we may meet them in Paradise.
Very cool, and I used to shoot. Perhaps it is a bit of blog irony that I wrote today on "admonishing the sinner" as one of the spiritual works of mercy. You did this, Father, as we all should.
God bless and love the rifle photos.
Given the choice Father, you could always ask to die of old age !
I always thought that hanging, drawing and quartering was a bit much. But of course the main point is to scare everyone who watches.
So that is the fruit of "GAIETY"- such nice folk!
Dear Father
Take this as a sign that gays have no grasp of either logic nor efficiency, though perhaps we should grant them a sense of theatricality.
I recently tried to back out of a discussion on someone's facebook page because I was unhappy with the idea of applying homo-eroticism to Jesus (to put it mildly). I was told that my comments were homophobic. When I said I would no longer discuss the matter since this word was introduced I was told that refusing to discuss homophobia was itself homophobic! (rational discussion on these topics with some gay people has all be ceased)
I'm offended that any person would think such a thing let alone say it to anyone especially a priest. I think the only response is one of prayer.
“Old bigots like you father should be shot and strung up.”
Dear Fr. I really take offence at this barb, thrown at you by this enlightened elite.
You are not old.
I think you are getting off pretty easy. They should try to shoot you at least a few times before stringing you up, you old priest you.
Don't be too sure it won't come to this. Sounds to me like a modern version of hanging, drawing and quartering. Presumably the first wound would leave you injured but still alive, so they could proceed to the "stringing up". I'm surprised they left out the other REALLY nasty bits.
Father,
Aside from the magnificent papal seal stamped on the barrel, I believe this rolling block is also a large caliber [maybe 50 cal or more] making it not only historically impressive but instantly lethal as well, if one was hit in the right spot.
This would send one quickly to the happy hunting grounds if one was in a state of grace when the lead flies.
Not a bad denoument, and the stringing up part would not matter much as your seeing God face to face.
Another opportunity, I'm afraid, to invite people to bash 'the gays' as though people with a homosexual orientation constitute some sort of homogeneous - no pun intended - sub-species (a kind of untermensch). And your choice of the phrase - 'thought it fair for the gays' - unthinkingly plays to that particular gallery. People with a homosexual orientation do not constistute such a voting block. There may be one or two faithful people in this situation in your congregation trying to live out a chaste life. Do you think it helpful to them to talk about 'the gays'? Please do not misunderstand. I agree with Church teaching about human sexuality and I think the remarks about shooting you and stringing you up reprehensible. But please think about the effect of your words. Read the posts and understand that they can fan the flames of intolerance.
"Take this as a sign that gays have no grasp of either logic nor efficiency, though perhaps we should grant them a sense of theatricality."
Grossly offensive words. Lumping a whole section of society together due to one comment from one person? Also the fact that you refer to gays as 'them' proves to me, the often felt sense of being segregated, ridiculed and perceived as being outside the body of Christ by fellow Catholics.
Lord have Mercy on the blindness of the 'righteous'.
I seem to remember that Mussolini was first shot and then strung up.
I am delighted Father, that you chose your instrument of martyrdom with due care and attention!
Wasn't there a fad for hanging priests in full vestments during the persecutions of the 16th and 17th centuries? I'm not sure if they'd actually shot them, first, probably not.
So Father... which set of vestments would you chose for your "going up in the world"? If I were you I think I'd use the awful horse blanket type - assuming of course that you still have any such aberrations around Blackfen - since it would be nice to pass on the good sets to future generations and not have them ruined, whereas who cares about the ponchos? And you'd be dead, so it wouldn't matter, really, would it? Much.
(*retrieves tongue from recesses of cheek*)
This was of course a very offensive remark and totally out of order. You are also, of course, not old.
I agree with Shadowlands and Amforas. I think this post is very offensive.
I have a friend who was present at Mussolini's death. He was shot, and then hung in Milan.
I think I'll have to find a way to change the hammer and sickle on my 1939 Izhevsk Mosin-Nagant to the keys and tiara. I wonder if I could find a gunsmith who would do it.
Humbly, Father, I don't think it's helpful to refer to "the gays" as you do here. In question are "some people from the strident gay lobby". There are many people who feel included in the category "gay" who in fact abhor the promotion of this sick and sinful lifestyle. There are "gays" who pray daily to be chaste, and who bear their orientation as a cross.
I find it interesting, father, that someone who disagrees with your views on human sexuality and who, reprehensibly, wishes you to be strung up and shot, you assume to be gay. Nowhere in his comments does he suggest that he is gay.
@Shadowlands
Perhaps I should have been selective in my choice of words, does "this moron who obviously has problems with Holy Mother Church's teaching on human sexuality, is totally cuckoo and should be mocked and ridiculed for his inability to grasp the concepts of logic and efficiency, although we must admit that he has some theatrical sense” suit you?
I was ready to condemn this immediately and avoided watching the video report. But, having suffered from Gender Dysphoria for 65 years, I know how really difficult it is to carry this Cross, day by day, year by year, decade by decade. I realise now that we must pray more sincerely and honestly for these poor souls, nay, us poor souls. There is a platitude, "There by the grace of God go I". Yes, I am ashamed of my problem, but I have to admit that it was God in His Ultimate Goodness which gave me this cross to bear. To those who condemn me, Might I ask, could you bear the cross that the Good Lord has placed upon my shoulders?
Maybe we should take a step back from this, remove the emotion and consider only the facts.
1. There is nothing reprehensible about anyone having homosexual orientation.
2.It is, objectively speaking, gravely sinful. i.e a mortal sin to have sexual relations outside of a proper marriage between a man and a woman.
3.This applies equally to heterosexuals as well as to homosexuals.
4.Any person in this position, and there are a lot, if I can put it that way, is taking a chance since we do not know when we are to be called i.e. knocked down by a bus or shot with a Remington.
5.They should certaily attend Mass and pray for help and mercy. However, if they, heterosexuals or homosexuals, receive Holy Communion in this state of sin then that is , objectively speaking, a mortal sin verging on the sacrilegious, if habitual.
6.It's all really quite simple really!
Your suggestion that bloggers delete and forget those nasty comments that appear in our comm boxes from time to time is a very wise one. Since I began doing this, the number of hateful comments has dwindled. Nowadays, I am grateful for the fact that I almost have non at all.
Talking of words uttered before a firing squad, or men holding shotguns, at least, I quite like those last words uttered by General John Sedgwick during the American Civil War. Just after noticing that some Confederate riflemen were over half a mile away, John Sedgwick strutted about the field shouting at his cowering men: "I'm ashamed of you! They couldn't hit an elephant at this distance!" Needless to say, he was shot dead only a couple of seconds later!
Thank you for pointing out Blessed Noel Pinot's final words. Indeed, it would be a holy and wonderful grace to be able to leave this world with the words "Introibo at altare Dei..." on our lips.
Amfortas and shadowlands: you provide hope with your words! God bless you both. A
Fr John Abberton: please do not misrepresent the terms of the argument. The point raised was the often homoerotic way that Christ is depicted in art, and reference was made to Saint Sebastian. It was a very straightforward point about art history.
The point raised about homophobia was that the default response to disavow and deny that homoeroticism exists in artistic depictions of Christ and the Saints looks conspicuously homophobic, yes, in a sort of attempt to "pretend it's not there".
This was not an attempt to make any judgement on Our Blessed Lord's sexuality: it was a conversation about perspective, 'looking' and narrative.
Without wanting to put too finer point on it, it's suggested that Michelangelo was "gay"/ "homosexual", although of course I'm sure this is something that will provoke the usual frantic disavowal.
Wow, such serious responses to what I immediately recognised as a gem of British humour. I was practically wheezing with laughter while reading this. Fortescue indeed!
Thank you Father for showing us how to respond to bullies, especially bloodthirsty bullies.
Shadowlands,
Father did not refer to the Homosexual community...
Thanks to Enid Blyton! my family would think that the "Gays" were a happy family or group of people.
Now as a teacher all the pupils I have met also use the word "gay" but they are not using it according to my dictionary, but they are using it instead of rubbish, sad, no good, not cool, etc.
I do know that some people have a third definition, but really with the English language we really need to confirm exactly what the word is being used to describe before we judge?
Dear Father Tim, I have enjoyed reading your blog for a number of years now and whilst I have always refrained from commenting I have felt obliged to do so in this case.
The past couple of posts you have written on the issue of homosexuality have shown, in tone rather than doctrinal content, disdain for gay people. The way in which you lumped them all together as 'the gays' is one such example. Another was in the previous post in which I thought what was a fair and reasonable criticism of the Soho Masses, coupled together with a reference for another group which offers genuine, Catholic support, to people struggling with same-sem attraction, was ruined by a dismissive referral to the man wearing a wig and a dress.
On one level there is a funny to it. The idea of it conjures up all the worst excesses of modern liturgy and takes it one step further. But in this case you weren't referring to the idea of it, you were referring very personally to one individual person who, whatever they have done, deserves your prayers, love and support as a priest of Jesus Christ. I don't think you intended to, but by opening the doors to the ridicule to him, in what we all know to be a difficult situation for him, you have done nothing to call that man to conversion, nothing to show something of the love of God to Him, but only risked greater rejection should he ever happen to read your blog.
It is so important for us as Catholics to be mindful of the way in which we teach the Faith. There are some gay people who have a 'martyr-mentality' and there are some who are simply on a crusade against the Church, but there are others for whom same-sex attraction is a real struggle, who have encountered rejection and hatred in the Church and who actually need our love, prayers, and practical support. Lumping them together as one group, 'the gays' solves nothing and only further entrenches the myth that the Church is homophobic or simply indifferent to the struggle of same-sex attraction.
I am sorry, Father, that you encountered verbal abuse on your own blog. I am glad you chose to try and deal with it in a humorous way. Whilst I would never defend insults of the kind you received, I do think that some of the offhand comments you have made have contributed to some of the hostilities on this blog and, due to this blog's prestige, elsewhere. Perhaps if you were more sensitive to how the words you use come across to gay people, you wouldn't have to explicitly defend yourself by claiming your assent to the Church's condemnation of homophobia in the catechism.
I hope you won't take this as an attack on you. It most certainly is not meant to be. I enjoy reading your blog and shall continue to do so!
The problem is not martyrdom of an individual priest but of the indignities of endless litigation with homosexual people using the law to destroy Christian morals in this and other countries. Indeed, Europe and the Americas are the exception with most of Asia and Africa retaining their allegiance to the natural law refracted through Christian, Islam and indigenous pagan tradition.
Unless there is secular support for Christianity as now exists, to an extent (ironically), in Russia there is no stopping the homosexual agenda. With the left having abandoned their failed economic projects they have turned to sexual and environmental politics with increasing success.
The Soviet empire was primary evidence of the failure of the “left”. Only financial collapse in the West will present the evidence needed of the disaster which is planet and animal worship. Quite how the failure of the homosexual empire will manifest itself is anyone’s guess? It will collapse however, it will collapse …
"Being shot and strung up"
is a traditional American pastime.
Negroes, Indians, Catholic Mexicans, were all treated in this manner by the Founding Fathers and their descendants.
The Ninos Heroes and the San Patricios, that stood up in defense of Holy Mother Church were treated to this custom.
And, they are stupid enough to take pictures.
So, always keep a set of vestments close; Father Francisco Vera was shot and strung up in his vestments.
*
I'm sorry if I offended anyone by referring to it being fair to "let the gays have their say". The impression I wanted to convey is that we do not condemn people personally but recognise that there is a group that has a voice and wants to be heard in this discussion. It was actually meant as an informally friendly reference.
After all, there are various gay groups and events (SMPC, Pride, Quest ...) - it doesn't mean that everyone is the same.
Society of St Bede
My comment was not directed towards Fr's post, it was in response to Just another Mad Catholic's words.
I didn't imagine for a moment that Fr Tim was having a deliberate attack on anyone.
If anyone here, had truly ever loved a person who is homosexual, or struggling with transsexual issues, it becomes very apparent in the way they write/type. At least it does to me.
Quoting the catechism endlessly about how we all take for granted treating such souls with sensitivity and compassion is meaningless. Men's hearts soon spill forth with their follow up sentences.
Whatever has gone on in churches, in politics, none of this will be what we are eventually judged on regarding our treatment of each other. It will be the inside of our hearts and minds.
Seek God's kingdom in your heart in these areas first, then the rest will follow. That goes for everyone, whatever their gender, sexuality or otherwise.
Just another Mad Catholic, I think your heart will soften as you discover your own place in the world, and don't seek to fit in and be accepted by those you assume to be in 'the know'
God bless.
Thank you Father for your response. I never doubted the integrity of your intentions. It was the impact of the words on others that concerned me. It's regrettable that this kind of issue cannot debated without harsh words and intolerance coming through in the various comments. We see this time and time again in responses to blogs. You only have to look at the responses to some of Damian Thompson's blogs in the Telegraph if Jews are mentioned. I'm not trying to establish a parallel between sexual orientation and race here. I'm merely saying that some subjects bring out the worst in terms of intemperate and often hateful language. Many of us hide behind the anonymity of a 'handle'. I do. Perhaps the anonymity and impersonal nature of these dialogues encourages people to say things they wouldn't dream of saying in ordinary discourse.
Father, whilst not martyred, spare a prayer for an Anglican priest, John Suddards, who has been found dead:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/9083941/Rev-John-Suddards-community-stunned-by-killing-says-Bishop.html
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