Photo credit: Mazur/catholicchurch.org.uk
Anna Arco of the Catholic Herald has interviewed Archbishop Mennini, the new Apostolic Nuncio for the UK. There is much of interest concerning the relationship of the Holy See and the Russian Orthodox Church. Archbishop Mennini served as Nuncio to the Russian Federation and therefore had much experience of relations with the Orthodox.
The Nuncio had the difficult task of trying to persuade the Orthodox that the Holy Father had great esteem and love for them. He worked hard to establish good relations between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox, using especially the approach of friendly visiting and conversation. He was particularly involved in an initiative which enabled Russian Orthodox students to study in Rome.
In such delicate diplomacy it is important to dispel the impression that the Catholic Church is engaged in an aggressive plan of domination which would undervalue or attempt to obliterate legitimate cultural and spiritual traditions of a people who have professed orthodox Christianity and preserved the heritage of the Fathers in many respects in doctrine and liturgy.
Nevertheless, it is surprising and, I must say with the deepest respect, disconcerting to read His Grace's advice to an Orthodox seminarian working with him:
[...] at the nunciature there was also a young [Orthodox] seminarian who had stopped studying in order to make some money. I would tell him quite often: “You must not become a Catholic. You have to keep your faith in order to better serve your Church. Now you know us you can dream about going to Rome. You can go to Rome one day in order to study but you should remain a Russian Orthodox.”Surely we can never say to someone that they must not become a Catholic?
42 comments:
While in general I agree with you, I do think that there may be circumstances where it is right to tell someone not to become Catholic. For instance, if we perceive that someone's motives in becoming Catholic are seriously misguided, advising them not to become Catholic may indeed be the best approach for their soul.
It really does make one despair. Given the comments in his book, I actually fear the Pope would say the same to Jews seeking conversion.
John Paul II made some very scandalous statements about the East. The Orthodox are *not* 'another lung' of Christ's Mystical Body since the Catholic Church alone possesses full and exclusive continuity with the Church of the first millenium. The Orthodox make the exact same claim for their Church. They would certainly not refuse Latin converts.
All priests ought to have "extra ecclesiam nulla salus" hot-pokered on their foreheards.
I do not disagree that it would be wrong to stipulate that someone, say a Russian Orthodox, shouldn't enter the Catholic Church if that's what they want to do. However, and I mean this only to forward a possible interpretation, if at once we 1) want to preserve the Russian Orthodox tradition and heritage and 2) have a reunion occur between the Catholic and the ROC, then it could be that we should want to preserve some Russian Orthodox who lean towards Rome and are open to reunion. The Catholic Church does accept the ROC as an authentic Church, having Apostolic Succession and valid Holy Orders. If all Roman-leaning Russian Orthodox left the ROC to become Catholic, then there would be none left to desire reunion and so effect the process of bringing the ROC into full communion.
Though I will not pretend to have a complete knowledge of the ecclesiological issues, so I will gladly defer to someone of greater knowledge about this issue; I only mean to offer my hand of a (possibly too) charitable explanation.
Jesus' Call is an ecumenical one "to all people of all nations." Thus, the Nuncio's recommendation was most appropriate. See http://www.holylove.org/messages.php?msg_id=5951 on ecumenism.
Horrible.
Does he say the same to the Queen?
What on earth is he thinking?
The E&W Hierarchy have been doing it for years!
I would have thought the sensible advice (if asked for) would have been to become a Catholic of the Eastern Rite.
@ Father Finigan
An exasperated Father Tony Pyle once said that he wished he had never accepted me into the Catholic Church at Our Lady of the Rosary, Blackfen, but we both persevered, and despite my many failings and mistakes, I think that I have made some valuable contributions over the years.
I do think however that the Pope should have told Tony Blair that he must not become a Catholic, but the fact that he didn't shows that we are all human and prone to make mistakes:-)
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The hard evidence that I gave David Evennett MP included details of my work 2006-2011 with Galina Clarke and the RUSSIAN SCHOOL OF FRIENDSHIP. The hard copy emails that I gave him and his assistant also made reference to the crucial WW2 exhibition produced by www.druzhba.org.uk which will be showing at Central Library Bexleyheath until 31st March 2011.
I also reminded David Evennett that we have yet to hear from the Home Secretary with regard to the negligent and disgracefully incompetent treatment that I received from Andrea Cunningham the Met Police Solicitor.
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I don't know any more Fr, all these hierarchs saying these things about the necessity (or lack thereof) of visible communion with the Catholic Church is extremely distressing...
This is like the thing in Jesus of Nazareth II about covenants, God's time, lack of missionary efforts towards a certain people... any thoughts on that?
Interesting. I live in America and tutor English to Korean students who study over here. I often tell them not to fall in love with us. You are needed back home. Take what is good from us and bring it back to Korea. You are needed back home. Your country needs you.
So I think the reasoning is the same. The Russian Orthodox need these future priests. And eventually these Russian priests will draw us closer together because they won't fear us. Once the mistrust, resentment, et al, is removed, the Holy Spirit can finish the job of uniting us.
I don't think stealing their priests will win over their hearts.
I quite agree. I have come across this at parish level where non-Catholics are urged by parishioners of an ecumenical persuasion to persist as Anglicans or Methodists or whatever, and not to convert.
There is One True Church. Only one. Of the Eastern Orthodox I say, close, but no cigar.
Yes Father, strange indeed. It seems to smack of the line “you can be saved regardless of what religion you belong to…” - which is true, of course, but it will be more difficult if you lack some of the means to accomplish that. As we believe that only the Catholic Church contains the fullness of Truth and all the means of salvation, why would we not encourage everyone to join?
Related to this is a comment made by a priest recently (I can’t recall the source) speaking of the Holy Father’s second Jesus of Nazareth book. In it he says the Holy Father has some rather startling remarks about the conversion of Jews. It seems to imply that we should not actively seek their conversion to Catholicism. Rather, we should leave them to God as their recognition of Jesus as the Messiah will occur anyway before the end of time. Or words to that effect…
Confusing.
Good for him he didn't tell this story when he still was here in Russia. It's definitely outrageous.
Fr. Tim, I have always had the greatest respect for your posts. However, I do not agree with the tone of this one.
Perhaps we should practice charity and take what Archbishop Mennini said in context.
I have spent time in Russia and yes, their culture, faith and traditions are all very much entwined in their everyday lives, far more so than our Catholic Faith. It would be very important to keep those traditions, that culture and faith alive.
The Archbishop has only been with us a short while and I think it grossly is unfair to attack him at this juncture.
As a priestly blogger you have a tremendous opportunity to spread the good news. What you write on your blog can do so much good or, so much damage. It is a responsibility that you should take seriously, this is not one of your best posts.
If I were Catholic Orthodox and I read some of the dreadful posts and comments that appear on the so called ‘Traditional Catholic Blogs‘ I would not wish to become a Catholic, I would probably run a mile.
Of course you are correct to question this. Against the doctrine Outside the Church there is no salvation, these statements are not just disconcerting, but scandalising. Unfortunately, distaste to conversion appears to be a post-conciliar problem, and the Assisi meetings are a culmination of this mentality - no need to convert, just be a good Christian/Muslim/Hindu/whatever, and we'll make the world a better place.
I agree, very disconcerting. He was not offensively going out of his away to prosletyze Russian Orthodox ... he was specifically telling him not to become catholic?!
I cannot speak for the nuncio, but I myself would be very afraid to tell someone not to become Catholic, as I think I would have to answer for it at my judgment.
A false/misguided ecumenical spirit, I'd say. As if one cannot be Orthodox, yet Catholic as well; that becoming Catholic precludes Orthodoxy.
I recently found in a 1920's private devotional prayer book a prayer "for the return of the Oriental Christians to Rome".
The logical fruits of ecumenism
Shocking :-((
Well considering that the Orthodox Churches have "retained" their Byzantine heritage and traditions way better than most Greek Catholic Churches, it makes sense. Most Greek Catholic clergy refused to rid themselves completely of "latinizations", at the directive from Rome. Do they still say the Rosary at UGCC or Ruthenian Churches. Why do UGCC nuns in the West insist on wearing Western habits. And why are there Franciscan Byzantine priests in the Ruthenian Church. St Francis is a "Western" Saint. Not "Eastern". Well it makes sense!. If you want a pure form of Byzantine spirituality than stay Orthodox.
It's difficult to judge in this case because we don't have all the information to explain the reason why. Perhaps the young man's intention wasn't quite grounded.
I can think of one or two people to whom I would have said "Don't".
Isn't it possible for an individual Orthodox to be Catholic? His particular church has valid sacraments and if he believes in the teaching of the Catholic Church then he's part of the one true Church. He just has to accept that his bishop is in error over the filioque etc.
It sounds a lot like my position of being in communion with my local bishop while disagreeing with his view that Catholic morality might change 'down the road.'
I was more worried to read on the Catholic Herald website that St. JosemarÃa Escrivá advised a Jewish girl not to convert. Everyone has to accept baptism. This girl surely must benefit from the baptism of desire, perhaps that's why God was able to forgive Escrivá so quickly.
Looking at the seminarian in Abp. Meninni’s story, there are several things to consider:
What if he HAD embraced Catholicism? Could he have continued his theological studies?
Would there have been an Catholic Church, Latin or otherwise, in his home town? Probably not.
Had Abp. Meninni received him, he would have had a certain spiritual responsibility for him. Could he guarantee this convert would have had access to the Sacraments from the Catholic Church while living in Russia? How could he foster his vocation?
Orthodox priests have similar issues to consider when receiving inquiries from persons isolated from an Orthodox parish
The Catholic Church teaches that the Sacraments in Orthodox Churches are valid and salvific. Vatican II said that ALL baptized Christians are in a relationship, albeit imperfect, with the Catholic Church.
And as others have asked here, what were his motived for becoming a Catholic? Could his possibilities for ordination in the Orthodox Church have been uncertain and he was just jumping ship?
R Wyn Jones - I am puzzled that you should object to the tone of this post. I took some trouble to summarise the context of what the Archbishop said, and made a critical point with genuine respect. You are right that priests should take their responsibilities to the faithful seriously when blogging. It was precisely this responsibility that led me, after much thought and consideration, to write as I did.
I can't understand a priest telling someone not to convert to the Catholic Church,(from what I've read some Anglicans were told the same thing). But it's a matter of conscience isn't it? If one believes that God is drawing them to the Catholic Church then they should become Catholic no matter what anyone tells them. However the Archbishop (was it?) didn't say whether the young man was thinking of converting. Maybe it was just something the Archbishop said, though it still wasn't right. The Church is made up of individual souls and one cannot sacrifice one's soul,not even for the good of others. First we have to save ourselves before we can save anyone else.
About four years ago, I found myself in a similar position: advising someone (a Protestant) very earnestly to enter Orthodoxy, while making no attempt whatsoever to bring him to Roman Catholicism. That's the point at which I realised I was bound to depart myself. I shall pray that the Nuncio should also find his way...
It used to be (as late as the late 1970s, the last time I was involved in a case) that one couldn't move between the Roman Church and one of the 22 Eastern Catholic Churches (or vice versa) without real reason, such as marriage. If you are born into one of the Catholic Churches, the expectation is that you stay there.
There are about 22 Orthodox Churches which while not in communion with Rome are able to offer a full sacramental life to their members: in the context of this discussion, the only normal destination for an Othodox who wanted to be in communion with Rome would be a move to the appropriate Eastern Catholic Church. It would be a profound insult by the Roman Church to any of its sisters if it insisted that the Roman Church held exclusively to the truth.
And all of this is before we even begin to think that there might be specific circumstances in the the young man's life that we don't know about: put bleakly, why would any ex-seminarian who wanted to make money in Russia want to work in the Nunciature other than to report on what was going on. (And in any case, can we assume that the Archbishop obtained the young man's permission (for he is surely identifiable) to tell his story?)
None of this is to suggest that the Nuncio has explained this particularly well - just to say that the story can't be as two dimensionally black-and-white as portrayed in the Catholic Herald article.
Ttony - there was a Catholic Herald article about the interview but I was quoting from (and linked to) the transcript, not any interpretation. We have the ipsissima verba of the Nuncio.
He did not speak of dissuading the fellow from joining the Roman Church but from becoming a Catholic, saying that he should remain a Russian Orthodox.
That was the bit that disconcerted me. The context was quite clear in the interview: that of mutual relations and respect between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches, for which this was given as an illustrative example.
There have been exchanges between our local seminary, St. Charles and a Greek Orthodox seminary. I am, of course, only reporting what I read in my local Catholic newspaper "The Record". I live in Western Australia. As I remember, these exchanges were for two or three months at a time and there have not been any reports of this happening recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKxfhJy43n0&feature=player_embedded
A day for life - Spanish bishop's conference video clip. God bless
"Does he say the same to the Queen?"
I should very much hope so! The last thing we want is a constitutional crisis followed by the reign of King Charles IV, Defender of Faith and um, well, you know, sort of, things people like, and Queen Horsey
"I don't think stealing their priests will win over their hearts."
Indeed so.
The question is not whether the Orthodox possess the fullness of truth, but in what ways they don't. So far as I can see, you couldn't fit a blade of grass between Orthodox doctrine and Catholic doctrine.That's before we get on to holy orders, sacraments, etc. If one wishes to attack their traditions or their liturgy, then we will be in the uncomfortable position of saying that the Eastern Catholic churches do not possess the fullness of truth, either. It's all very well harping on about "extra ecclesiam nulla salus", but it's a question of what that actually means.Some people seem to trot this phrase out with little consideration for the serious theological issues that surround it. It is far from as simple as what the words appear to mean.
"He just has to accept that his bishop is in error over the filioque etc."
Actually, he just has to accept that his bishop does not correctly understand what the Latin church teaches about the single procession of the Holy Spirit.
Mennini's position is in line with Papal teaching for the last 40 years. You need to get out the ghetto, Father, its 2011 not 1911.
My apologies, father. In my haste to find some way around what the Archbishop was said to have said, I did you the disservice of not assuming that you'd actually read it throroughly first. Sorry!
Ttony - thank you. Your comment in any case helped me to clarify a couple of things.
PiusXXX - would you have a quotation from one of those Popes saying that those not in communion with the Holy See should remain so?
Pachomius - I'm not sure the filioque can be dealt with quite as easily as that. However there have been discussions recently and I don't think it is the main problem.
The principal doctrinal question is the authority of the Bishop of Rome as well as his infallibility.
Another quite important questions would be the indissolubility of sacramental marriage and the prohibition of remarriage after divorce.
One could add more abstruse questions such as the orthodoxy or otherwise of the teaching of Gregory of Palamas.
Nevertheless, on most major doctrinal questions we are in agreement. That is the solid ground for ecumenical dialogue and fraternity. But I don't think that it is grounds for saying that a person should remain orthodox and not come into communion with the Holy See.
"Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church.With the Orthodox Churches, this COMMUNION is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord's Eucharist".CCC, para.838. No doubt you will tell us that the CCC was written by a pack of Modernists, eh, Father?
I didn't think you would be able to find a quotation from one of the Popes (or the CCC or Vatican II) saying that those not in communion with the Holy See should remain so.
Profound but imperfect communion - yes of course.
Little needed for full communion: I'd accept that too, but it is very much our view of things. The Orthodox would cough politely or hurl anathemas depending on their appraisal of ecumenical dialogue with Rome.
Isn't this all about liberal guilt and our old friend 'diversity'? Because there have been shameful episodes in the Church's past when forced conversion has taken place and because the secular line that we must all 'celebrate' diversity has taken such a strong hold at certain levels there now seems to be a feeling that attempting to bring the full message of salvation to those outside the Church is oppressive and disrespectful.
During my time in the Church of England (which I continue to love in many ways, not least because they know how to use music in the liturgy - well, some of them do)I came across an Evangelical jibe about other Anglicans: 'they think Christianity is about being nice to people and hoping they'll guess why'. Sadly Rome seems to be going the same way- and yes, I too have been puzzled by what Pope Benedict, whom I love and admire, seems to be saying about Judaism.
Pius XXX's quotation illustrates one of the problems with the new catechism, which makes leaps and bounds in comparison to it's predecessor. The difference between the Orthodox and the Catholic church are profound - one cannot share the Eucharist, when doctrinal differences exist. To do so is a complete fraud.
Fr Finigan
I think you are absolutely entitled and even obligated to question what this nuncio has said, as his words have caused grave scandal to Catholics. The onus is entirely on him to justify himself, not on you.
Thank you, as always, for your tireless defence of the Faith.
Isn't it possible for an individual Orthodox to be Catholic? His particular church has valid sacraments and if he believes in the teaching of the Catholic Church then he's part of the one true Church. He just has to accept that his bishop is in error over the filioque etc.
Since filioque has its roots in eastern Syrian Christianity, I don't think that problem can be pinned just on the Latin Church, if that was being inferred.
Moreover, to be a member of the Church, one needs to be baptised, believe in the faith has defined by the Church and be under the authority of the Pope and your Bishop, as properly exercised by them. Schismatics are not, therefore, members of the Church.
David -
That is really my question, can't an Orthodox fulfil all those points? He can receive valid baptism in the Orthodox church (as well as all the other sacraments). As an individual he could assent to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In his life he can accept and follow the teaching of the Pope, eg follow Catholic teaching on divorce.
My understanding was that the original excommunications applied to the schismatic bishops, not the Orthodox churches. So an individual in those churches may not be schismatic, if they fulfil those criteria you mentioned. If this is true then it would seem legitimate to advise that person to remain in their church.
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